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26 FEB

Are we naturally religious?

Dr David Hay
85
Comments | Latest by Greywizard , 14 Mar

Atheists have, of late, had great fun demolishing the argument from biological design. Best known through William Paley's 19th century treatise on Natural Theology, this argues that the adaptations to their environment that we see in animals and plants necessarily imply the existence of a divine designer. Charles Darwin, who had read and admired Paley as an undergraduate, subsequently explained these adaptations in terms of natural selection. The argument from biological design became untenable, as certain well-known biologists have recently reminded us.

The paradox is that this undoing may yet turn out to be good news for religious believers.
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In his seminal book, At The Origins Of Modern Atheism, American Jesuit historian Michael Buckley highlights the weakness of a religious apologetic that depends on theoretical argument rather than on direct human experience.Ā  He suggests, specifically, that the bias of philosophy during the 16th and 17th centuries – both in its best-known materialist version of Thomas Hobbes and in the idealism of RenĆ© Descartes – encouraged scepticism about our experience of God.Ā  As a result, traditional piety lost plausibility to the extent that apologists for religion felt they could no longer appeal to religious experience. In submitting to these influences, Buckley suggests, the theologians made a tactical error by handing over the defence of faith to natural scientists, who proceeded to deduce the existence of God, at second hand, from scientific data.

That was a fatal mistake. There is something very odd about a defence of religion that avoids reference to direct experience of God's presence. It is a bit like going through an inner debate as to whether my friend in the chair opposite is real or a delusion before inviting him to the pub. It is to abandon common sense.Ā  In the end, those who chose to defend religion this way succeeded only in generating the atheism they were trying to avoid, for as Buckley says, "if religion itself has no inherent ground upon which to base its assertion, it is only a question of time until its inner emptiness emerges as positive denial."

The fact that theology is still blighted by this error should not surprise us given our continuing scepticism concerning religious experience. This scepticism takes its modern form from the founding father of secularism, Ludwig Feuerbach.Ā For the past 150 years the default secularist position has been to interpret all claims to such experience as being based, in Feuerbach's words, on ignorance and stupidity.Ā That is to say, it has nothing to do with our true biological nature, for we are all of us without religion as infants.Ā Religious belief is acquired, it is not inborn, and Feuerbach says this is due to the projection of human qualities onto an imaginary figure in the sky.

But what if religious experience is the precursor of belief and not a delusion? Alister Hardy was Linacre Professor of Zoology at Oxford between 1946 and 1961. He was an orthodox Darwinian but one who believed that our religiousness is biologically inbuilt. He suggested that spiritual awareness had been selected for during the process of organic evolution because it contributes to survival and he founded the Religious Experience Research Unit to test his hypothesis.Ā 
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We now know that religious or spiritual experience is widespread in the Western world. The last UK national survey indicated that around three quarters of the adult population admit to being aware of a spiritual dimension to their lives. Surveys in Britain and the United States have also repeatedly demonstrated links between religious experience and good mental health, good education, lack of prejudice and concern for social justice.Ā 

What was missing when Hardy founded his Unit in the 1960s was scientific evidence to contradict Feuerbach’s claim that religious experience had nothing to do with our biology. Over the last ten years, however, the physiological processes associated with such experience have begun to be identified. One illustration is the research led by Andrew Newberg, head of the Nuclear Medicine Department in the University of Pennsylvania. Newberg used a SPECT scanner to measure the metabolic changes in the brain when someone undertakes the most characteristic of all religious activities, prayer or meditation. His remarkable findings, first reported in 2001, show that the physiological data closely complement the subjective accounts of mystical experience available in many religious traditions, including Christianity.Ā More recently still, in 2006 Mario Beauregard at the University of Montreal published data from a parallel study using an MRI scanner, which works on a completely different principle from the SPECT scanner and obtained results that appear to complement Newberg's findings.Ā 

Genetics research backs up the physiology.Ā Geneticists often study identical and non-identical twins to help distinguish inherited characteristics from those that are acquired from the environment. The methodology has been applied to the investigation of spirituality by Lindon Eaves at the Virginia Institute for Psychiatric and Behavioral Genetics. He published a report in 1999 on research done in cooperation with the University of Queensland. The team examined more than 2,200 pairs of twins and found that whilst churchgoing was mostly to do with upbringing, spiritual awareness was linked to genetic inheritance.Ā In a twin study in Japan, reported in 2004, Juko Ando and his colleagues also found spiritual awareness was linked to heredity, suggesting that biology transcends East/West cultural differences.

In as far as this evidence is recognised by the new atheists, it is rather sidestepped. Richard Dawkins, for example, admits that religion had survival value and therefore was selected for during the process of evolution. But he interprets this as an accident, claiming that adaptations that have evolved for other purposes just happen to be available for the construction of biologically useful but mistaken religious experience.

This argument is flawed, however, because it assumes as axiomatic that religious belief is erroneous, thereby forcing Dawkins into explaining away the biological realities as accidental.Ā That is a prejudgement in accord with the sceptical canons of the European Enlightenment; not a 'scientific' conclusion.

With Occam's Razor firmly in mind, the most straightforward interpretation of the data is to say that there is a transcendent dimension to human experience, associated with specific physiological states, and commonly but not exclusively associated with religious belief. This does not necessarily mean that a religious interpretation of reality is correct, but it does suggest that there’s an empirical basis for religious beliefs that is not all that different from the experiential basis for scientific beliefs.
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Dr David Hay was formerly Director of the Religious Experience Research Unit in Oxford (now based in the University of Wales at Lampeter). He is a zoologist and the data and detailed argument supporting his views are contained in his book Something There: The Biology of the Human Spirit, published in London by Darton, Longman & Todd in 2006 [ISBN 0-232-52637-0] and in Philadelphia by Templeton Press in 2007 [ISBN 1-1-599-47114-0].
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"Why Spirituality is difficult for Westerners" (Chapter 9 of David Hay’s book Something There: The Biology of the Human Spirit, Darton, Longman & Todd, 2006) is particular relevance to this debate. Thanks to the generosity of his publishers, the complete chapter can be read by clicking here.

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The debate


Greywizard 27 Feb

This is an incredibly misleading essay. It suggests, for example, that Dawkins is simply wrong about religion being the side-effect of something else, by saying that Dawkins sinmply "assumes as axiomatic that religious belief is erroneous."



But Dr. Hay has given no reason at all to think that religious belief is not erroneous. All he has shown is that some people have experiences which may be interpreted as religious. Some people, he tells us, do not interpret these experiences in a religious way. So there must be some other basis upon which to found religious beliefs, because experience, by itself, doesn't, by his own showing, accomplish this.



In order to give content to these experiences, we may speak of transcendence, or spirituality, or oceanic feelings, or mysterium tremendum -- and so the litany goes on. But the experiences themselves do not underwrite any of these interpretations. In fact, it is difficult to say what it is that makes an experience spiritual. Can there not be atheist spirituality? The Buddhists obviously think so.



Dr Hay concludes that "the most straightforward interpretation of the data is to say that there is a transcendent dimension to human experience, associated with specific physiological states, and commonly but not exclusively associated with religious belief. This does not necessarily mean that a religious interpretation of reality is correct, but it does suggest that there’s an empirical basis for religious beliefs that is not all that different from the experiential basis for scientific beliefs." It suggests nothing of the sort. What does 'transcendent dimension' mean, for one thing? If science based its findings on physiological states, we wouldn't have very much science to speak of, would we? Physiological states can be interpreted in all sorts of ways, and in themselves give no basis for scientific conclusions. But shared perceptual data in the presence of experimental procedures is a horse of a very different colour. When religion has achieved this kind of confirmation, then we might begin to think that religious beliefs have some objective reference. We might even find out, then, what people do mean by transcendence, spirit and god.

Paul Rodden 27 Feb

Surely, all one can claim is that a subject has had an experience, and one has chosen to call it 'religious'?


Others might call it 'relaxing' if it is peaceful, 'psychosis', or 'some form of pathology', if it is intense and expressive.


Whether someone is experiencing the transcendent, is merely hysterical, or just benefitting from the practice of meditation, cannot be judged with empirical certainty as having any link whatsoever with a deity or anything transcendent.


The researchers are merely labelling a particular state of consciousness among many, with a certain 'footprint', and calling it 'religious'. The researchers have subjectively chosen and named one set of thousands of experiences one might have in any day, as 'religious'.


However, I consider myself 'religious' all the time - "24/7" - intimately, if not inseparably (unless I go to Hell!) linked to the Divine Being (the Trinity), but at any given moment, my state of consciousness will differ greatly. I can be religious and play bridge, I can be religious and fill in my tax return, but empirical evidence would not show this 'religiosity' in these activities. It would show only the physiological/metabolic changes brought about by those activities.


If the only time one was related to 'the transcendent', was in a state of meditation or prayer, one would have to hold a very strange idea of what is meant by the imago dei, and therefore a very distorted theological anthropology, as a result.


Maybe that's OK with Buddhism, but from the Christian tradition from which I come, we are not 'naturally religious', but in God's image: 'religious' (i.e., believer), or not.


It's Aquinas, not Ockham. Essentialism, not nominalism.


The essential nature or substance of the human person, in the image of the Divine, and not merely the naming of an attribute of fallible, human, subjective experience merely judged as related to the Divine. Being precedes existence.


Therefore, although I disagree with Dawkins' view, I have to say that his view, as reported here, is more honest and rigourous than the rest of the article, for, religious belief, as expressed here, is at least as erroneous as Dawkins' views, as both see religion as an accident (inheritance, behaviour, activity, etc.), rather than part of the Essential nature - being - of all human persons, and not merely a sub-set of persons, whether genetically determined or being 'predestined', to some.


Essentialism has one large ethical impact. It sees everyone as absolutely equal through the common substance of our humanity, not through some attribute of our existence, genetic, or otherwise. Therefore, the idea of any form of dualistic thinking - that some people are genetically superior, or that the religious (predestined or not) are somehow closer to God, is shown to be invalid. Essentialism is the great leveller and upholder of human dignity: whatever 'religion', colour, or creed.

Paul Rodden 28 Feb

Also...


As to epistemological issues, Dr Hay quotes Michael Buckley: "if religion itself has no inherent ground upon which to base its assertion, it is only a question of time until its inner emptiness emerges as positive denial." But, Dr Hay also says: There is something very odd about a defence of religion that avoids reference to direct experience of God's presence.


Could be argued (although I haven't read Buckley's book), that Buckley does not mean 'experience' when he talks about 'inherent ground' (i.e, Hay might have be putting words in his mouth), but the Eternal (natural) Law (which is not the same as natural science), which orthodox Catholics would assume to be this ground?


If, however, Buckley is referring to experience, then those who think otherwise would think that argument is 'fatally flawed' (and there are plenty of dissenting and erroneous views buzzing around among the Jesuits!).


How does the 'experience' argument square with John 20:29 and 1 Peter 1:8? There are many people who are believers who do not have religious experiences.


Isn't it both faith and reason, not experience alone, surely, which is at the root of religion?


One of Michael Buckley's fellow Jesuits from Boston College, Bernard Lonergan, used to talk about the virtue of 'uncommon sense' and 'common nonsense', and I would see the argument for experience as being common nonsense.


One doesn't have to go "through an inner debate as to whether my friend in the chair opposite is real or a delusion before inviting him to the pub" if you can see him, but if you can't - which is the category under which I would consider faith and religion falling - then I think one has to rely on faith and reason because 'experience' just won't cut it: one could be being deceived.


Train tracks will always converge on the horizon according to my senses, reason knows better.

Kyle 28 Feb

Paul, you seem to be taking a very narrow view of the word experience. Experience could be simply something like an awareness of God's existence; or the belief that God is speaking to you through the Bible.



"Train tracks will always converge on the horizon according to my senses, reason knows better."



Reason doesn't know better. You use your senses and reason to teach you that you senses are not always reliable. Likewise we can use our senses to teach us about the limits of reason:



Suppose that you have been out for a walk in the wood. Upon returning, you are greeted by the police. Your boss, who you didn't like has just been murdered. He lives within walking distance of your house, your fingerprints are on the murder weapon, you have a motive, you have no alibi etc...



The evidence is completely stacked against you, in fact, you recognise that any rational person would conclude that you are in fact guilty. However, you know that you were in the wood, and so you know that you are not the murderer. It would be foolish for you give up this belief in the face of any amount of evidence. (I should add that the only sort of evidence that should through any doubt on your commitment to your innocence is the sort of evidence that would undercut your reason for believing that you are innocent, such as you have some sort of brain defect that causes you hallucinate)



Similarly, is it not reasonable to allow experience such as 'I am aware of God's existence' to guide our reason?

Paul Rodden 28 Feb

Hi Kyle. I think we are using 'experience' differently.


As far as I understand it, 'experience' is merely the reception of sense data. Anything beyond that is interpretation of that sense data.


Therefore, "Awareness of God's presence" isn't experience, it's a huge interpretive framework, a weltanschauung. That framework preceded the experience, or you would have said, "What is that?", and if you didn't know anything about religion, you wouldn't necessarily have interpreted it as religious, unless it was direct revelation.


Our senses can't teach us anything. They are receptacles of sensory input. Anything beyond the mere reception of data is an interpretation of the sense experience. Even learning fire burns is not experience - it's the understanding of the nature and attributes of fire and the power of memory of the experience of being burnt from which one learns, the sensory perception (experience) of being burnt teaches us nothing itself.


In your example, it is not your senses or experience which tell you you are innocent, it's your interpretation of your sense experience, i.e., reasoning, based on sense data. It is your interpretation of your data which makes you conclude you are innocent, and it is the interpretation of the sense data by the police which makes them conclude you are guilty. You both have different sets of sense data, and interpret them differently. Your experience is not available to them. They can't see inside your head. It's the problem of private minds.


For me it's more an issue of metaphysics and philosophical anthropology as to the nature of human personhood - being in the image of God - and phenomenology and interiority in coming to understand that relationship: not raw experience.


To claim man is 'naturally religious' is to reduce substance to an attribute of a mere species of animal, rather than of what it means for a person to be imago dei. We don't experience that, we know it. It is revealed, but not experienced. It is understood, but not sensed - or else all empiricists would be religious, which clearly, they aren't.


For me, the Bible is inerrantly revealed Divine Truth, but revelation and 'experience' must not be conflated or confused, which I think often happens.

Kyle 29 Feb

"For me, the Bible is inerrantly revealed Divine Truth, but revelation and 'experience' must not be conflated or confused, which I think often happens."



I think this discussion of experience is missing the point.



Suppose a person is reading the Bible, and they become aware that it is true, or that it is from God. Some people will say that this is just something that the person is imagining, but perhaps it is not.



On your account, reading revelation is no different from reading any other piece of writing. However, perhaps when we read it, it at times comes with 'testimony'. I'm not too worried about the word I use, I would have said experience, but that has clearly not helped.



No doubt people will not know what it is, or will reject it as their mind playing a trick on them. But some will not, and it will lead to understanding.



Paul, you seem to suggest that no one could recognise the Bible as revelation without first being within the Christian framework. Is that an accurate interpretyation of what you have said?

Kyle 29 Feb

I think what I have just said agrees with the point being made here:



"There is something very odd about a defence of religion that avoids reference to direct experience of God's presence. It is a bit like going through an inner debate as to whether my friend in the chair opposite is real or a delusion before inviting him to the pub."



One does not have to understand what it means for the Bible to be divine revelation before taking it as such. As you read it, it testifies to being true, and you accept it as truth.



This is the sort of thing I meant by experience, not something mystical, or indefeasible, or raw. This testimony/experience may well borrow from our other knowledge, and it is certainly doubtable, and rejectable. There is nothing inconsistent about saying that we are all naturally religious in the face of so many atheistic empiricists.

Paul Rodden 29 Feb

"Paul, you seem to suggest that no one could recognise the Bible as revelation without first being within the Christian framework. Is that an accurate interpretyation of what you have said?" Broadly, yes.


I point you to Acts 8:26ff, St Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch. I am not denying experience, but for Scripture to make sense, it requires an interpreter.


Catholics believe that Apostolic Tradition is that interpreter, not my own subjective opinions (see 2 Peter 1:20, to end of Chapter 2). That is, we are servants of the truth, unlike Martin Luther, who considered himself superior to that Tradition, and declared himself autonomous: he was the dog that went back to his own vomit (2 Pet 2:22).


I consider myself too sinful and fallible to claim that I can subjectively interpret scripture without bringing my own baggage to it, and so I think it would be arrogant to do so. Therefore, as in the Acts example, we submit to an authority if we want to claim to be faithful Catholics.


God can, and does, reveal himself to anyone He likes, Christian or not, and He doesn't need the Bible to do so. However, as I said, there are many that accept Sacred Scripture as authoritative without having experienced God: we call that faith. However, from your argument, if it can only be through experience, then Biblical 'signs and wonders' are necessary for accepting Scripture as true.


You say: "Suppose a person is reading the Bible, and they become aware that it is true, or that it is from God."


For us, one doesn't "become aware that it is true". For us it is true, irrespective of our experience or feelings about it. To say that one becomes aware of it being true is to assume subjectivity is the arbiter of the truth of Scripture - which is my problem. It is not in awareness, experience or anything else. To claim this is to have a very low, humanistic view of Scripture. It becomes merely yet another religious book on the smorgasbord of religious books as the judgement of its truth is based in awareness and experience. Therefore, the Koran must be true for others because others "are aware of" its truth.


As Catholics we believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. It is without error, irrespective of our awareness or subjective feelings or experience - that is, we are servants of the Tradition, not arbiters of the truth.


Catholic documents have different levels of authority, and Apostolic Constitutions are the highest.


This is what the Apostolic Constitution, Dei Verbum, states:


11. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted.


Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation. Therefore "all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).


We accept Scripture as true - because it is true - as it is under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not because we have experienced it as such.

polly 29 Feb

Catholics believe that Apostolic Tradition is that interpreter, not my own subjective opinions (see 2 Peter 1:20, to end of Chapter 2). Interesting. Of course the Bible (and all documents come to that) have to be interpreted, but the idea that the "Apostolic Tradition" is immune from the subjective opinions is nonsense. Experience (shaped by natural law presumably Paul) is certanly part of the dynamic at play.

Paul Rodden 29 Feb

Hi Polly.


We believe that the Apostolic Tradition is a continuation of that same Tradition which defined the very Canon of Scripture, and inspired the writers themselves.


Therefore, to say what you say, then the Biblical writers must also have written merely from human experience, and not the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Catholics believe both are intimately united: it is both Scripture and Tradition. They are inseparable and infallible - Scripture and Tradition - because both are upheld by the Holy Spirit. We believe the Holy Spirit was the inspiration of Scripture, just as He is at the heart of the Apostolic Tradition. This is an act of faith based on Christ's claim of never leaving us as orphans (as was His institution of the Eucharist).


If not, one has to say the Church went wrong, and if one renounces Apostolic Tradition, one has to say the Council which actually defined the Canon of Scripture was in error - and so one has to show at what point that Tradition fell into error - or state that the Bible is just another human product among the 'scriptures' of other religions.


Luther mistakenly conflated Apostolic Tradition with the sinful actions of men, Popes or not, as if mere mortal men should be sinless, like Christ. Many Christians make the same mistake. They make Christ out to be a moral teacher and that his message was a moral one. It was not.


Christ's message was one of repentance (why confession is so important) because we can't be moral without His grace.


Luther preached against salvation by works, and that grace is required for salvation, yet when the Catholics around him couldn't save themselves and were steeped in sin, he expected them to be moral, but as they weren't, he claimed superiority and condemned them. This is incoherent. That's why the truth of Catholicism isn't vested in men - the Pope and Bishops, etc. - but in the Apostolic Tradition which those men protect.


Luther saw the truth in himself and his own experience and pontifications. Luther's truth wasn't transcendent, it was horribly immanent and subjective - based on his experience of a 16th Century human institution, not the Apostolic Tradition, and not on the Truth contained in the Scriptures about the weaknesses of humans.


Hence, why in the above article by Dr Hay, he sees no problem with experience because he is following the tradition of Protestantism: the truth of subjective judgement within.


As GK Chesterton said in his book, Orthodoxy


"Of all horrible religions the most horrible is the worship of the God within .... That Jones shall worship the God within him turns out ultimately to mean that Jones shall worship Jones."

Greywizard 29 Feb

This whole discussion is so weighed down with ideas of scripture, tradition, revelation, authority, and so on, that it will never really get back on track unless we force the issue. I agree with Paul that experience is a pretty feeble basis on which to found religious belief, but the idea of apostolic tradition is no better. You'd think this was some unified, unquestionable datum, and all we have to do is go to the well and pull out a bucket of truths. It's not so simple. at all.



Chesterton may have said, as Paul quotes, that if Jones worships the god within he will end up worshipping Jones. The trouble is that there is no way of uniquely identifying God, Jones' god or anyone else's. And all the talk in the world about something called the apostolic tradition (I won't give it those respectful caps, as though it actually referred to something identifiable) won't solve the problem. There's enough disagreement within the canon of scripture, let alone in the apostolic tradition, to keep scholars going for another two thousand years. Why pretend that anyone can point with authority to it, and tell us what it is?



As to the rather absurd claim that protestantism is about 'the truth of subjective judgement within,' let me disabuse you right away, Paul. Protestantism was not founded on subjective judgement, but on the words of scripture, which, it was believed (mistakenly, as almost all religious beliefs are) would be made clear to each individual reader, not as a matter of subjective judgement, but as a matter of grace. So much for grace.



There is really a disquieting level of catholic hubris about your words Paul, none of which has any sound foundation, but which you, in all the ardour of religious enthusiasm. seem to think presents and unanswerable case. That is precisely the weakness of the argument to experience, such as Dr. Hay's.



In the end, of course, like all religions, Christianity, catholic or protestant, is another human creation, with the fallibility of everything human. The pretence that it is anything else really is becoming a tiresome tune. At least Dr. Hay tries to give religion some kind of basis in human experience. You're going to let it float free, without reason, justification or support.



I mean, just listen to what you say:



If not, one has to say the Church went wrong, and if one renounces Apostolic Tradition, one has to say the Council which actually defined the Canon of Scripture was in error - and so one has to show at what point that Tradition fell into error - or state that the Bible is just another human product among the 'scriptures' of other religions.



Yes, that is precisely what one has to say, and it's true!

Scarthin Nick 1 Mar

I fancy we have, side-stepped the original question. "Are we naturally religious?" That is: have we been programmed, if you like, or received revelation that the world around us can only be attributed to a divine creator. If we accept the answer is "yes" then the evidence of differing religious thought and deed, world wide, over the millennia would suggest that this is such a loose and wide-ranging process as to raise uncomfortable questions as to what exactly a single divine creator wants from us. Is there a single, exclusive path to follow - or will anything do as long as there is a nod of acknowledgement toward a creator? Let's say the former is correct, then the next question should be: "Are we naturally disobedient to God's will?" The Bible would seem to suggest it, as does life in modern times. Does the fault lie within ourselves or can it be attributed, in part at lest, to supernatural agencies?



Greywizard 2 Mar

You're right, of course, Scarthin Nick. We have got sidetracked into the mysteries of the Magisterium, none of which is 'natural' in the appropriate sense of the word.



The truth is, though, I suspect, that religion is not natural in the sense that Dr. Hay would like it to be. People have all sorts of wierd experiences, and some people call them religious or mystical. However, we mustn't forget that people have had experiences, as they thought, of Thor and Wodan and Freia, as well as Baal, Lakshmi, Ganesh and Isis, Ishtar, Ra, Jupiter,Jesus and Mary, and hosts of saints. If I could spell the names of Mayan gods, I'd add them too. People have starved themselves, castrated themselves, isolated themselves, whipped themselves, sat atop pillars for years, in order to live up the expectations of their gods, or to have more vivid experiences of them.



This kind of thing doesn't show religion to be natural. It shows how very unnatural it is, to build superstructures of belief on odd experiences. If religion has any claim to be natural we have to look, I suspect, in a very different place. Cognitive theories of religion, such as we find in Pascal Boyer, Justin Barrett, Scott Atran, or Stewart Guthrie, are probably going down the right track. It doesn't show religion to be a reliable reflection of reality, but it does show how, given our cognitive abilities, and the evolutionary uses to which these abilities are put, beliefs in supernatural agents should have arisen quite naturally. It would also explain why these agents are imagined so differently amongst different peoples.



The fault, dear Brutus, lies in ourselves -- not, however, that we are underlings, but in that we have stage managed the show from the very beginning.

Paul Rodden 2 Mar

What should we take on authority? Should we submit to authority or are we, as individuals, the arbiters of truth - whether we come to it by 'reasoning', or being 'moved by a spirit'?


I believe in essence, a human nature, man as imago dei. All the arguments here, including Dr Hay's are non- or anti-essentialist arguments. In fact, Dr Hay categorically rejects them: 'There is something very odd about a defence of religion that avoids reference to direct experience of God's presence.', i.e., non-natural knowledge of God must therefore be either invalid or misguided.


What I am saying is very, very relevant to the debate, unless you're a non-Catholic.


I believe in the essence of human nature, the , because I am a servant of the Truth, not creator of it. I am told this is true, I haven't experienced it, but I give it real assent. I thought this is what faith is. To experience everything first before I believe it is St Thomas' doubt, isn't it? Aren't those who haven't seen blessed? Or is Jesus wrong?


Protestantism isn't wrong in relation to its view of Scripture, Catholicism, or the world, but because of its view of authority. The protestant view of authority is the same as that of the atheist: myself.


We are not 'naturally religious' because not everyone's religious. We are naturally human, we are naturally bipeds, we are naturally genetic - and these things determine us biologically. But when it comes to religion, or merely basic living, we then have questions of free will, and if one believes one's actions are determined genetically, or religiously 'pre-destined', aren't the atheist and the Christian saying the same thing?


Where is free will? If we were all naturally religious, then surely no one will be damned if it is 'natural'. How could a loving God be so harsh as to condemn them in their natural state? Our natural state, is Adam, before the Fall. We are not 'totally depraved'. We are essentially good and made for God's glory. But this doesn't mean 'religious'.


Catholics see us at a mid-point between the angels and the animals with the propensity to go either way: to be saved, or to be damned, to be an angel or an animal. Through acting we create ourselves - we either become sanctified, or not. Deification is part of our belief, hence saints. There are people who are blessed with the grace to become pre-eminent exemplars of God's life in the world, but it's not natural, it's a gift.


If it was natural, I could just give up and drift - because whatever I did was my destiny - I couldn't change it. There wouldn't be any point in trying to do anything good - or not pursuing hedonism - and many sects live like this.


You can't say what a protestant believes because they have no dogma. Some will believe they are free, others will believe they are predestined: their authority comes from their own interpretation of Scripture.


Greywizard says:


'As to the rather absurd claim that protestantism is about 'the truth of subjective judgement within,' let me disabuse you right away, Paul. Protestantism was not founded on subjective judgement, but on the words of scripture, which, it was believed (mistakenly, as almost all religious beliefs are) would be made clear to each individual reader, not as a matter of subjective judgement, but as a matter of grace. So much for grace.'


But, it's a matter of grace given to the individual. Therefore, if someone ignores that grace (which it is easy to do, especially if it's telling you something you don't like), then surely you still end up with subjective judgement?


Catholicism believes in submission to an authority outside itself. The Bible is 'the book of the Church' because it was the Church who decided what books would go in it (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It is the whole people of God - the sensus fidei - not one individual's pontifications, graced or not.


It may not be your idea of ideal, but for me it's more coherent than the other options. It disabuses me of the idea that I'm the source of truth, and simultaneously reinforces the idea that I'm no better than the genetic scientist, either.

Paul Rodden 2 Mar

italic off


Paul Rodden 2 Mar

Call it spooky, synchronicity, providence, but James Schall SJ, published an essay last night on this very issue, entitled Always more than is seen.


He, of course, as I said, makes more of the issue of essence as a vital argument in our pro-life view of persons, and shows that experience is primarily related to our experience of ourselves, not religion.


http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/schall_morethanisseen_mar08.asp


Some of the flavour of it:


Benedict XVI: "Failing to ask questions about man's being would lead inevitably to refusing to seek the objective truth about being as a whole, and hence, to no longer be able to recognize the basis on which human dignity, the dignity of every person, rests from the embryonic stage to natural death." — Benedict XVI, "The Changing Identity of the Individual", To Members of the Inter-academic Conference (Institut de France), January 29, 2008.


Schall: Benedict begins his talk by noting that the exact sciences "have progressed prodigiously in the knowledge of man and the universe." The danger is that the scientific method used in these sciences will be the only method used to understand man. Man's "wholeness" will be "isolated" by a method that by definition can only study a part of him, that part subject to matter. This part is the least important part of him. Scientific method cannot examine things that do not fall under its presuppositions, as the whole of man does not, particularly his freedom and intelligence.


The title of this present essay ("Always More Than Is Seen") comes from the following remark of Benedict: "Man is always more than what is seen or perceived of him through experience." We do perceive something of him through experience, of course. We really exist in a real world in which matter as such is good. Without this grounding in an objective reality, we could not begin at all. Still, "man is always more than what is seen or perceived of him through experience." The very structure of man is that he cannot be fully known to others unless he allows himself so to be known. This is what love and friendship are about. Yet, what is seen and perceived also comes from this "more" that the individual man is.


We will never know what we are. We are not simply the products of our experiences. As Socrates said, we are to examine our lives daily, not as a chore, but as a task of our very being. We not only are, but want to know both that we are and how we are in a world that includes what is not ourselves. In this sense, the knowledge of who we are and that we are, as such, is intended to be a delight. Our existence is not designed ultimately to be a burden, unless we make it so, which we are free to do.


Man is neither the result of chance nor of a bundle of convergences nor of forms of determinism nor physico-chemical interactions; he is a being who enjoys freedom, which, while taking his nature into account, transcends it and symbolizes this mystery of otherness that dwells within him." We notice that this sentence, implicitly, contains all the proposals for human origins that seek to explain man by some purely scientific hypothesis. The very fact that man can "enjoy freedom" indicates that he is not simply a product of deterministic or chance sources. It implies a kind of being who is created as an independent whole.


The "otherness" that is within each person refers not only to his actual genetic heritage, that is, to the relation he has to his parents and family, but to his very origin in God. The human soul is not "evolved" out of some non-soul, but is directly created from within the inner possibilities of the Godhead. This is why, when we know someone else, we eventually discover that the existence of someone else, particularly of those we love, leads to a source beyond ourselves. The other leads to the Other.


"Man is always more than what is seen or perceived of him by experience." We always discover this "more" when we seek to "know ourselves" or to know others. The knowing of others, of what is not ourselves, is really our path to know ourselves. The "otherness" that is not ourselves leads us finally to that "Otherness" that simply is. We do have an end and a destiny. The more we know of ourselves, the more we can identify what we ultimately are. This is why to fail to "ask questions about ourselves" prevents us from "knowing ourselves," the very project that founded our civilization. This project was carried through to its fuller understanding by the revelation of the God who is best defined simply as caritas. That is finally the definition of the Trinity, that there is otherness within the Godhead, that God, in Himself, is not alone, but full life and being.


Benedict next uses a curious phrase. The development of science, he remarks, "attracts and seduces us with the possibilities they offer." We can be "attracted" or "seduced" because we must choose to accept even the truth about ourselves. Our intellectual education thus should be aimed at "the center of creation and not made the object of ideological manipulation, arbitrary decisions or the abuse of the weaker by the stronger." We have "experienced" these dangers, Benedict reminds us, in the 20th century. And they are still dangers in the first decades of the 21st century.


The meaning of human life follows from this freedom that flows from the human being's free will. This freedom is the foundation of human responsibility for itself and for others. "The special dignity of the human being is both a gift of God and the promise of a future." The gift includes a project to be achieved through human actions in response to divine and human actions. The world is really a place where things, ultimate things, happen.


Greywizard 2 Mar

Paul, as Scarthin Nick says, this is really 'way' off topic! Benedict and Schall may interest you, but the question we started with was: Are we naturally religious? Of course, what this actually means is a matter of dispute. What is natural? What is nature? What, for that matter, is ultimate? What would it mean to say that religion is natural? That we can identify an experience? That we can pinpoint a cognitive process the result of which is religious believing?



The problem with your 'argument' is that it doesn't give us any evidence. It's all about doctrine, Christian doctrine. I mean, take the remark: "That is finally the definition of the Trinity, that there is otherness within the Godhead, that God, in Himself, is not alone, but full of life and being." What does that mean? Show this to me. Show me that this is true, not that this is what 'Trinity' means to Christians, but that God is a trinity in this sense of providing otherness within the unity of one being. You talk about dependence upon individual judgement. Well, you may submit yourself to an authority outside yourself, but, ultimately (ah, there's that word again!), it all comes down to someone's individual judgement. That's why Pius IX (was it? -- my history's a little shaky) pushed through the doctrine of papal infalibility. Reasoning, as Wittgenstein said, has to come to an end somewhere. But why with someone living in the Vatican?



But your unwarranted assumption that Benedict's 'curious phrase' about the sciences attracting and seducing us with the possibilities they offer as meaning 'because we must choose to accept even the truth about ourselves' is beyond reason. In what way does the attraction and the seduction of science (is that what science does?) do this to us? This is really meaningless talk. But, more than that, it doesn't address the topic of this conversation at all.



I mean, take this quote from Benedict in the midst of your text: 'Our intellectual education thus should be aimed at "the center of creation and not made the object of ideological manipulation, arbitrary decisions or the abuse of the weaker by the stronger".' Imagine,of all things, the pope saying that something should not be 'made the object of ideological manipulation, arbitrary decisions or the abuse of the weaker by the stronger'! (And what does 'the centre of creation' mean?) But, did the man never look in the mirror?! And when he talks about these dangers in the 20th century, does he remember his own time in Hitler Jugend? Does he remember that his church supported fascists in Italy, Spain and Germany? Does he know that Hitler was never excommunicated? Goebbels was, but that was for marrying a protestant. The dangers of that kind of thoughtless authoritarianism is still a very real threat to us, from the Vatican not least.



However, if you think submitting, in this way, to an external authority, gives you solid ground to walk one, go ahead, but, you know, it's not really external, in the sense of providing evidence, it's just the opinion of someone else (or even a group of people). It's not very convincing, but then, not much religion is. Don't just talk, show me!

Paul Rodden 2 Mar

Greywizard, I can't see how it's off topic.


It's just that Dr Hay and you have a common baseline with which I happen to disagree. Of course I can't show you: that's the point. Both of you are taking experience as your benchmark. This is plausible for an atheist, but for a Christian, I think it is a far more dangerous path to tread as it reduces faith to experience, which kicks the chocks away from the objective, transcendent nature of truth, and moves down the slippery slope of subjective relativism.


If there isn't a fixed point, then your arguments about people's behaviour (Goebbels, Hitler, blah, blah, blah) matter - only in as much as truth is reduced to the actions of fallible human beings - and relative. How can you judge what they did as repugnant? Some people think what they did was what Germany needed - and still needs! You just happen to disagree. But who cares about what you or I think? "You say pot-ay-toes, I say pot-ah-toes..."?


Pius IX didn't create infallibility, it was already present in the Church and used to judge Luther. All he did was promulgate something which was already or implicitly believed for centuries, but had never been explicitly stated.


The truth of the Church is beyond the capability of mere men to carry out - or else Pelagius would have been right, and Augustine wrong. Your assumption is that somehow Christians have to be moral. This is no evidence of sanctity. The emphasis for us is on repentance, as we believe that is what Christ taught, not Pharisaical moral law-keeping.


What we understand is that we need infallibility because we are fallible. If we didn't we would reduce truth to our own judgement - our own experience.


As to the question of whether man is 'naturally religious', therefore, one's view of the human person is crucial. Because, if he is, then whatever 'god' he chooses to attach himself (including your one, Greywiz), is the true one.


My argument isn't with you because you'd never accept what I am saying, and that's fine. I'm not trying to convert you, and never have done. I think science - as does the Church - is wonderful as it explains so much that was previously mystery - until it becomes ideologically anti-human: i.e., part of the 'Culture of Death'.


But, being asked to accept Dr hay's view as 'Christian' (that is not only a protestant view) is to fall into the 'Jones worshipping Jones', mentality - which would explain the hedonistic frenzy one sees at 'Christian' conferences and 'Charismatic' prayer groups. They're experiencing 'god', aren't they? Is that an expression of being 'naturally religious'? It might well be, but there's too much else about it that's more related to hysteria.


As you said "In order to give content to these experiences, we may speak of transcendence, or spirituality, or oceanic feelings, or mysterium tremendum -- and so the litany goes on. But the experiences themselves do not underwrite any of these interpretations. In fact, it is difficult to say what it is that makes an experience spiritual. Can there not be atheist spirituality? The Buddhists obviously think so."


I agree. Yes, these are called experiences, but they're not transcendent because experience cannot be, it is rooted firmly in our bodies. Hence why, the transcendent for us is known analogously - through human experience of human love, not some tribal frenzy or orgiastic convention with a preacher that whips up the proceedings with cheezy music.


This is where John Paul II's Theology of the Body is so critical. Unfortunately, you don't believe in redemption, and constant renewal, otherwise you wouldn't keep harping back to the sins of the Catholic Church (because your 'religion', of course, is beyond reproach, pure, and infallible - implicitly - and always has been - because you and your own judgement have to be at the centre of it). That's the problem of experience, and that's the problem of man being 'naturally religious', so why I reject it.

Greywizard 2 Mar

Well, Paul, that's a lot more than a mouthful. I'm not going to bother with most of it, since it's really a lot words, words, words, as you implied about my response. I draw your attention to only one passage:



"The truth of the Church is beyond the capability of mere men to carry out - or else Pelagius would have been right, and Augustine wrong. Your assumption is that somehow Christians have to be moral. This is no evidence of sanctity. The emphasis for us is on repentance, as we believe that is what Christ taught, not Pharisaical moral law-keeping."



First of all, drop the antisemtism -- viz. 'not Pharisaical moral law-keeping'. That's something that Christians have held against the Jews since the beginning. It's very unlovely, and it's time to stop. Okay?



Second, what's repentance about? Why are you repenting? What for? Christians don't, you say, have to be moral. So, what do you have to be sorry about? What's confession all about? What is moral theology all about? After all, some of the most sensitive moral theology has been written by Roman Catholics, and a few insightful Anglicans. Still worthwhile reading. But, if Christians don't need to be moral, what's this all about?



Last, redemption and constant renewal are two different things. The world renews itself each spring. One generation of life follows another in a long procession of renewals. But redemption isn't about renewal at all. It's about salvation, about rescuing the lost denizens of world sunk in sin. Read the story.



However, having said all that, fine. You disagree with Dr. Hay. So do I. But, just to give Dr. Hay a little support, since he has been investigating experiences deemed religious in a scientific spirit, what do you mean by science becoming 'ideologically anti-human: i.e. part of the 'Culture of Death'.' You've been reading far too much Vatican propaganda.



Hopefully, sometime Theos will have something about god and morality, because, just a hint, claiming a fixed point in morality doesn't give you one. There are other ways of being moral, and, as an added benefit, being able to condemn the actions Himmler and Goebbels, besides the religious one. In fact, the moral record of religions has not been all that good. Atheists may have not done much better, but the old religious claim to moral foundations is such an old chestnut. Almost time to give it a rest. There are better sources of morality.

argripton 2 Mar

I think that there is a problem with the definition of "religious experience" - in my opinion an unexplained phenomenon wrongly attributed to the social and biblical morality code that we absorb subliminally throughout our young formative years.


And for me, there's the rub - organised religion has stopped so many of us asking questions and searching for what maybe an untapped aspect of humankind, maybe an unknown power, maybe a connection through spirit or even through time. The all-seeing overlord theology has handcuffed our naturally inquisitive minds to a 5000-year-old system of unscientific blame culture.


However, it was to be expected, how else can control be exercised over large communities. A rule book was necessary - without it the true human animal quickly returns to wreak havoc, a quick glance through the images of past and present conflicts is testimony to the unbelievable depths of depravity we are all instinctively capable of.


For me the truth is simple, it rises every day, sets every evening - it gives life and without it we die.


This was understood 20,000 years ago, but for the species to survive, grow and prosper the morality code had to be attached ... and so it was.


This over-populated dying world is now reaping the benefit of 5000 years of "Chinese whispers" and purposeful manipulation of truth and fiction, rantings transcribed from tribal storytellers to the written word, but still with the original cosmology locked into the gospel phraseology.


20,000 years ago we knew our place, the ancient words informed us of who we were and our place in the great scheme. The first authored literature in existence is the Sumerian epic of Gilgamesh, a moralistic story of life and death, but also formed from a fictional trip around the ecliptic circle through and around the images of the constellations in the night sky.


This was the system used, it was a verbal history lesson for the tribe, it was informative, entertaining, the media of the day.


How sad for us that someone recognised the popularity of the story, pick up the ball and ran with it - and continues to run today.


A quick example:


He's covered in hair, standing in water, bending down, waiting for a lord to arrive ... St. John the Baptist maybe? Three thousand years earlier his Sumerian name was Enkidu, and he was the rear section a centaur.


The front of the centaur, the most beautiful human form in the star-filled universe, the greatest hero of them all eventually arrives, and on his shoulder he bears a wooden cross, a bow and arrow.


Symbolic narrative then, symbolic narrative now, questions are stifled and the power to control continues.




Greywizard 3 Mar

argripton. We have to be careful what we ascribe to Dr. Hay regarding the definition of religious experience. For Dr. Hay, as I understand it, religious experience is a correlate in consciousness of certain identifiable physical (brain) events. The experiences are called spiritual or experiences of the transcendent. They are not identified with sacred texts, although, presumably, sacred texts speak of such experiences as well.



The argument, as I understand it, is that since the Enlightenment turn to science and scientific reason, religious people have been put on the defensive, and the transcendent has been placed at one remove from human beings. The only access we have to the transcndent is through a chain of reasoning, say, proofs for the existence of God, etc. Dr. Hay wants to claim that this was a mistake, and that religious people already have immediate acquaintance with the transcendent, and that spiritual experiences show this to be the case. So why should religious people be satisfied with argumentation (such as Dawkins', for example) which makes God inaccessible to experience? We have the experiences already. We can identify them with MRI, twin studies and the like. So why should we be content with substitutes placed just out of human reach?



That, I think, is the argument, and it is not tied to specific traditions or texts. In fact, Dr. Hay would doubtless say that such texts are products of those identifiable experiences.



As I have suggested already, this has the science of God backward. The experiences, for what they're worth, are doubtless a part of the repertoire of human experiences. People have what have come to be known as 'spiritual' experiences. I don't doubt that. I know people who do. Because of peculiar features of human cognition, these experiences become identified with the existence of an invisible, unverifiable, transcendent realm. I won't go into that, but you can read all about it in people like Pascal Boyer. But, of course, they don't need to be so identified. Buddhism, in some of its phases, has thought of these experiences as the normal outcome of strategies of meditation. This was attached to ideas that are equally unverifiable, such as the idea of universal mind or soul, reincarnation, the wheel of rebirth, and so on, most of it borrowed from Hindu sources.



My point simply is that spiritual experiences, for all their value -- and some people hold them to be extremely valuable -- do not really provide evidence for anything besides themselves. Does that mean that we are not naturally religious? Not necessarily. We might want to cultivate such experiences, and speak of them as what we mean when we speak about religion. In this respect we might want to acknowledge that not everyone has such experiences, so being religious would be something like being a concert pianist, something for experts. Certainly, as you say, we should not want this to provide a basis for power for such people to make claims on others as to what they should do, feel, or think. In fact, without finding a correlate for these experiences, which, like our experiences of tables and chairs, provides us with a common world to live in, religious experience should probably be restricted to a subset of human beings who have the capacity for such experiences, and its cultivation might be seen as curious indulgence -- something like Don Juan, for whom sexual experience was particularly intense and provided richness of life.



The one thing that is most questionable about Dr. Hay's analysis of spiritual experiences is his labelling of them as experiences of transcendence. I'm not sure that he can give meaning to the word 'transcendence' in this case, especially if he wants this word to refer to a realm to which we have no access beyond the experiences themselves. As a scientist, Dr. Hay is bound to give us some way of falsifying claims of transcendence, otherwise this word is a bit like the word 'spiritual', a vague portmanteau word which includes everything from mysticism to the enjoyment of poetry. Doubtless, by finding a physical correlate for the term, Dr. Hay has, for experimental situations anyway, given some more definite meaning to the word. When he refers to the feeling of transcendence, he means to refer to cases where persons have such and such brain activity. But that doesn't help us get out of the circle.



So, doubtless, if 'religious' is defined as 'having such and such brain states and correlative conscious experiences', then certainly some people are naturally religious. Does this help us with the question that we are discussing here?

argripton 3 Mar

Greywizard - it seems as though we are probably batting for the same team but maybe wearing slightly different colours. Perhaps the whole problem arises from insufficient or maybe ill-thought-out adjectives to describe an unexplainable transcendent event.


It seems as though the pretentiousness of human thought patterns leans towards the theory that "If I don't understand it, there must be an outside influence which is beyond my understanding." Which is quite a boast, and quite "leap of faith" if you'll excuse the pun.


Such an easily available answer to unexplained transcendent events rushes headlong into the comfort zone of a blame culture offered by those promoting the many different creeds of theology ... stalwarts of moral standards who would wish to see a world without inquisitive thought.


Whoever it was, so many thousands of years ago, that decided to resort to personification to explain the then unexplainable cosmos has much to answer for.


I feel I should add that I am not, for want of a better word "unreligious" - transcendent events have taken place in my life that demand answers, and as I hinted at in my last post, if personification and consequentially unsound, unscientific theologic theory had not swept across the world, by the present day we would have had thousands of years of searching for the true reasoning behind such happenings, and by now many of the questions stifled at birth, may well have been answered.






Greywizard 3 Mar

argripton. We are probably on the same side, although I still don't know what is meant by calling something transcendent? When you say, as you do, that 'transcendent events have taken place in my life that demand answers', what do you mean by the word 'transcendent', and how do you distinguish the transcendent from the non-transcendent? Kant, for example, thought that we could know only phenomena. Noumena, or things in themselves, are not accessible to us. Noumena, presumably, are transcendent to phenomena. That's a way of pointing to what might be meant by 'transcendent'. But I simply remain nonplussed. I don't understand the language.

Paul Rodden 3 Mar

Maybe it's just that you've been reading too much Wittgenstinian and Kantian propaganda, Greywiz?

Greywizard 4 Mar

Nevertheless, what is transcendence about? What does 'transcendence' mean?

argripton 4 Mar

Greywizard (and hi Paul) – Each of us will draw our individual conclusions from very different paths and perceptions of experience. I've always held a level of irreverence for antique philosophy, I believed that Kant, Descartes or Nietzsche would prove to be barriers to free thought rather than an aid - they have the ability to inform me of how they believe they came to their conclusions in the 17th, 18th or 19th century, but probably cluttering and unhelpful in the 21st century, or maybe it’s just that my life was too short to be influenced by the ostentatious autobiographical thought patterns of others followed by the consequential agreement or disagreement process.


And as for Plato … from my own investigations he appears to be merely regurgitating family documentation and information that should be attributed to his ancestor Solon, but doubtlessly benefited from a lucrative level of celebrity.


I apologise if the term "transcendent events" is too vague - although I still feel that it's self explanatory.


Back to the original question - "Naturally religious" is a reasonably simple term, or as complicated as we wish to make it. Ascertaining the definitions of the individual words would be looking for a depth that is surely not intended.


For me it suggests that there is an instinctive ā€œunseen overlordā€ reaction to the scientifically unfathomable - ridiculous yes, but sadly still poignant to 90 per cent of the worlds highly nurtured population (give or take a few percentage points) ... and the capacity to nurture holds the key to control, without it this conversation would not be taking place.


If the ability to easily sway the thoughts of impressionable youth had not been usurped by those with prehistoric evil intent we would not have wasted 10,000 years of falling on our knees, offering tokens and undeserved deference to those who held the ā€œholyā€ rule book, in return for a 50/50 chance that the personified solar system would solve all of our problems. Surely by now, without these ageing shackles of dogmatic boundaries, transcendent events, inexplicable occurrences beyond the range of normal perception, would have been researched and securely attached to a yet-to-be-discovered scientifically based explanation.


Ancient literature holds the answers, from Sumerian, Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Christian text, the system of subterfuge can be traced back to the ā€œcradle of civilisationā€ (England not Iraq) – and it’s possible to follow the trail of deceit perpetuated by various versions of graphic allegory. (You think that the Battle of Thermopylae really took place? – It’s just another story).


I am not normally forward when it comes to self-promotion, but if you would like to see where it all began there is an amateur video on my profile page at www.myspace.com/alangripton - it’s early astronomy, necessary for prehistoric long-distance travel and from a time before the belief in gods assumed control.


Paul Rodden 4 Mar

That there is a realm beyond direct sense experience, therefore not accessible through the senses, ergo - why Dr Hay has got it wrong because if it can't be experienced directly, then what is one experiencing?


That is why we believe the transcendent can be known intellectually, but also that if anything is experienced, it is only experienced analogously through the genuine love shared between persons, and the goodness of creation, not just in specific events Dr Hay chooses - like 'prayer' or 'meditation' - as I discussed at length in an earlier post in this thread.


The 'horizontal' relationships of mankind, when loving, give insight, or experience of the divine, but not directly - because no one can 'look upon the face of God and live'. The love we experience between each other is real love, and when it is such, it reveals the divine. But the experience isn't of God directly. That is, God takes human experience deadly seriously, He gave it to us, but the way He is experienced isn't directly. if it was, we could claim to some sort of superiority and fall into pride. Every person is created by God, He loves every one equally, ergo, God has no favourites.


The assumption in this forum, as always, is that the protestant worldview is the only one.


Catholicism's whole outlook on the world is at fundamental odds with it, yet it's clear that even the atheist's which post here only have scant knowledge of bad actions performed by individual Catholics, or will trawl through Church documents for 'proof texts' for their argument.


Catholicism isn't like Christian fundamentalism, it doesn't do the 'proof-text' thing, and it doesn't function from a dualistic good/evil, transcendent/immanent perspective.


The whole of life is shot through with God, not individual experiences.


What Dr Hay is talking about is what some of us refer to as 'cultic immanentism'. It is confusing eros with agape. (See benedict XVI's Encyclical, Deus Caritas Est.


I thank God I have a Church to indoctrinate me with such beautiful propaganda, which tells me about the wonders of each and every human person. If individual Catholics over history have chosen to reject that, that's up to them: God doesn't force himself on people. You can take it or leave it.


You left Christianity Greywiz, and it's left you cynical and bitter - but as you know - that's what we teach will happen.

Paul Rodden 4 Mar

What I meant by confusing eros with agape, is not being able to see each one clearly and distinctly, and therefore see how each one functions in the unity of the human person, and therefore mistaking eros for agape. As always with Catholicism, it's what Pope Benedict refers to as et-et: 'both-and'.

argripton 4 Mar

Why do I get the distinct impression that I have stumbled into a room in the middle of a domestic dispute?

polly 4 Mar

You're very welcome agripton.

Greywizard 4 Mar

Hey, I'm not a party to this dispute, and it's certainly not domestic. I still don't understand, Paul, what 'transcendent' means. You say it's beyond the perceptible world, but you also seem to imply that we can have access to it through human relationship. In what way does this get us to the transcendent? What does it mean to say, as you do: "The whole of life is shot through with God, not individual eperiences." I could have sworn I ate breakfast this morning.

Greywizard 4 Mar

Ich glaube, dass Sie mich nicht verstehen kann. Ich will wissen, wass 'überweltlich' wirklich bedeutet. Nicht anders. Wo ist das Anzeichen? Zeigen Sie es mir. Auf Englisch man sagt 'transcendent', aber warum solten wir denken dass diese Wort etwas indentifiziert?



Here, I'm just trying to learn German, so there may be some mistakes. But English doesn't seem to work .... so!

David Hay 4 Mar

Thank you very much to all of you for responding to my opening piece. I’d like to make some remarks that may clarify what I was trying to say and help the discussion. The first point to make is that I am thinking of religion as a human universal. So I am not arguing about the rightness or wrongness of any specific religion such as Christianity or Buddhism. I am by personal conviction a Roman Catholic, but the plausibility of any particular religious faith has to be argued separately, on theological or philosophical grounds, after the question of universality has been settled.



Edmund Burke referred to the human species as Homo religiosus. The empirical evidence of universality is overwhelmingly on the side of Burke, since no human culture has ever been discovered that is without some form of religion, though the Victorian anthropologists tried hard enough to find one. Only in post-Enlightenment Europe and those large parts of the world influenced by Europe, with its special economic and social history, has secularism had a significant following. And even here, after 400 years of secularist critique, gut level spirituality survives surprisingly strongly as an implicit form of religion. The most recent national survey in the UK showed that around three quarters of the adult population of this most secular nation feel they have experienced a spiritual dimension of spiritual reality.Of course most of them would never be seen inside a church or other religious institution, and quite a number of them would call themselves atheists. The difference between theism and atheistic religions like Theravada Buddhism is evidence of a debate about the nature of our experience of transcendence, internal to religion. Modern and postmodern western followers of a spiritual path outside monotheistic orthodoxy are usually opting for the atheistic side of that debate. On the other hand, European secularism denies reality to the whole of this huge dimension of human awareness.




Of course the secular view is that all these people are suffering from the 'God delusion'. Universal errors are certainly possible, as presumably was the case with the once universally held idea that the sun orbits the earth; that is, before Copernicus put us right. If religion falls into this category, then it requires some plausible scientific explanation for its incredible success in gaining the adherence of humankind. The fundamental secularist explanation is that of Feuerbach, who asserted that religion (and he, like some of my critics assumed that religion meant Christianity and therefore monotheism) was the result of the projection of human qualities onto an imaginary figure ā€˜in the sky’. The hypotheses that derive from Feuerbach and are currently taught in most Western universities include primarily the suggestion that the projection is due to the sufferings endured in class society (Marx), to neurosis (Freud) and to misinterpretation of the effervescence experienced in large religious gatherings (Durkheim). Eachof these hypotheses has been tested extensively in recent years and in general the evidence requires their rejection (for the details see my book Something There: The Biology of the Human Spirit).



More recently still, in the past decade when the physiological correlates of spiritual awareness began to be uncovered, making Feuerbach’s dismissal in terms of stupidity or ignorance less plausible, there has been a turn to Pascal Boyer, Scott Atran and others. The suggestion is that religious awareness has admittedly evolved because it has survival value, but as a kind of lucky mistake without ontological import . Now this of course is plausible and Boyer in particular makes a coherent case. But the argument is circular, because he has already decided that religion is an error and he has therefore assumed the correctness of the hypothesis that has to be proven.



Finally, quite properly there have been several requests for a definition of transcendence. Since such experience goes beyond the grammatical categories of everyday language, subdividing the manifold into subject and object, subject and predicate etc., it is difficult to pin down. Nevertheless, the congruence of Andrew Newberg and others’ neurophysiological data with the phenomenology of mystical experience as described in many cultures, including Christianity, suggests that science has a role in elucidating the phenomenon. The research done in the 1990s by Rebecca Nye and myself on the spiritual life of children (see our book The Spirit of the Child for details) uncovered the significance of a naturally occuring ā€˜relational consciousness’ that has evolved because of its function in helping us to survive in community.



You may ask, if this is supported by hard evidence, why is it so difficult for it to get a hearing? In Something There I argue that there are extremely powerful social and economic reasons for the difficulty. The individualism that is so prominent in European thought is in direct opposition to relational consciousness and contributes to its suppression or even repression. In his masterpiece The Wealth of Nations Adam Smith explained to an 18th century audience how self interest (a sanitised form of the old fashioned vice of avarice) is the necessary basis of wealth creation in a market economy. That opinion still dominates economic thought in the global market place, with the result that individualism has been steadily gaining in influence since its powerful enunciation in the 16th and 17th centuries - both from the materialist perspective by Thomas Hobbes and others, and from the idealist point of view, Descartes. No wonder that religion, the universal cry from the human heart for meaningful belonging in the cosmos and its sister, the longing for a moral commonwealth, have such a hard time in making themselves heard.


Greywizard 4 Mar

Thank you, Dr. Hay, for intervening in the discussion. Some of your remarks were very helpful. I'm afraid I won't be able to access your book in my 'neck of the woods' while the discussion takes place, but I don't understand how you go from 'relational consciousness' to transcendence. Also, to be frank, I can't understand why you take Boyer's theory of religion to be circular. He first analyses the structure of consciousness (basically), and then shows how naturally religious assumptions derive from our normal way of dealing with important things (particularly predators) in the physical environment. Stewart Guthrie does something of the same sort in "Faces in the Clouds". As you say, the idea of transcendence is difficult to pin down. But that means, doesn't it, that you really don't know what it is that you are referring to? Just possibly it is nothing more than the residue of the kinds of things that Boyer and Guthrie refer to as a result of our categorising things in the environment in (well, really) the wrong way, that leaves us with a sense of mystery, because there is nothing concrete that we can pin our beliefs on.



I just wonder, whether this really has anything to do with contemporary (Enlightenment) individualism, or whether it has more to do with the fact that scientific theories demand evidence? As I said, 'Wo ist das Anzeichen? Zeigen Sie es mir.' Show it to me. Show me the evidence that relational consciousness actually points to something that we call 'transcendent', and then explain what that something is. That's where I come to a fullstop every time.



Religion may be a 'universal cry from the human heart for meaningful belonging in the cosmos.' Perhaps there is no such thing. Perhaps we are castaways in a galaxy far away, and what we really need to do is to learn to live together. There is no reason why we should not achieve some sort of moral commonwelath, especially if we could do away with all the divisions over what people suppose the transcendent is and says. Hobbes certainly thought there was some basis for a moral commonwealth, though he was a bit more pessimistic than many others.



Of course, the world doesn't look very hopeful at the moment, but if we could simply cancel through by all the claims to a transcendent realm, perhaps we could settle our problems more easily.



By the way, your remark that "Of course the secular view is that all these people are suffering from the 'God delusion'," is, I think, very wrong. Dawkins clearly thinks that that is what the religious are suffering from, but this is not the secular view at all. The secular view is that, no matter what our beliefs, whether we believe in transcendent entities or powers, or not, we try to settle our differences, and learn to live together, without reference to ontological beliefs that we do not share, and that none of us can substantiate. It is a very serious mistake to believe that the secular view is, in itself, anti-religious. It is not. What the secular view demands is a willingness of all parties to forswear dependence on unverifiable claims as to the constitution of the universe.

David Hay 4 Mar

I'm perfectly happy to admit that I may be wrong, but so might Boyer, who is one of the more judicious investigators in this difficult area. Nevertheless the bias in our academic culture is so heavily loaded in the secular direction that I think I deserve more of a hearing than I get. The argument connecting or rather disconnecting indivdualism from transcendence is contained in Chapter Nine of "Something There". If you care to emerge from anonymity I can send you the text electronically.

Hendrik 5 Mar

A multi-choice question for historical research into the proposition


that humans are naturally religious :



When does Religion cease to be a key element in a people’s cultural cohesion, animating and controlling both its economics and politics ?



a. When the disintegration of their culture takes their belief in their God or Gods down with it.



b. When they stop believing in their God or Gods in order to keep up with the development of their culture towards acquiring another, much improved key-element for their cultural cohesion.



c. When the dynamics of coming together of the peoples of the earth generates a different, this time commensurate key-element for their cultural cohesion and they call it ā€˜whatever’.



d. When Science identifies this ā€˜whatever’ and understands how it can find ways to apply it to a globalising society and make it cohere.



Like Richard Dawkins does in his book the ā€˜God Delusion’ to gauge the likelihood of the ā€˜Existence of God’, one can give a percentage of probability to each of these answers and any others one can think of, behind each of which there is a different historical scenario or story.


But then ā€˜probability’ is not what one looks for in a story and its sequences. Since they have to do with human existence, what is looked for in these stories is ā€˜direction’, the answer has to be a strategic one, made in the gut not calculated in the head and it has to be given 100 percent for acceptance to be an effective pilot.


God is such a story and the telling and hearing of it is Religion. Its truth is poetic, meaning it opens the mind to seeing a light in the dark.


There are good stories and then there are better stories. They all answer to a human conscious awareness which queries its cosmic environment for purpose and directions, and yes we are born with the questions, but not with the answers.


Greywizard 5 Mar

Certainly David. I like my net name, but my real name is Eric MacDonald, and my address is esmacdonald@eastlink.ca. However, for purposes of this list I'll remain Greywizard. I don't know about the wizard part, but I'm grey.

David Hay 5 Mar

Greywizard, from one silver surfer to another, it's on its way.

David Hay 5 Mar

Sorry Greywizard, my message was bounced. Can you check what you sent me and give me your address again, or if you prefer, send it to my e-mail address at

Chris 6 Mar

I notice that Theravadan Buddhism is mentioned as an atheistic religion by Dr Hays. This seems to assume that there is a clear meaning to 'religion' and to 'atheism'. The meaning of atheism is in turn closely connected with the meanings of 'theism' and 'god'. Now I would suggest that the meanings of these terms are at the very least somewhat obscure. In the case of 'god' I would say that it has become almost meaningless; it seems to mean whatever any particular monotheist thinks it means.



I would also concur in the postings that state that 'transcendent' has an elusive meaning. It is not possible to use it in debate without a clear and possibly long definition.



Given that there is no clarity over the use of these terms, it can be be very misleading to call Theravada Buddhism 'atheistic'.



As to whether we are naturally religious, I think that this once again begs a question - what 'religious' means.



However, it is a potentially fruitful course to investigate widely experienced unusual states of consciousness, particulalrly those that are experienced as very positive and life-enhancing to determine whether and why they are helpful. I think one would find that such states are a normal part of human experience and not the monopoly of any religion. It is not necesary to regard them as 'religious' although those experiencing them may be encouraged to use religious terminology to refer to them.



Paul Rodden 6 Mar

Thank you for you responses, Dr Hay, but I think they don't address my issue, so I'm sorry if I haven't expressed it well enough, and alternatively, if I'm not grasping your points. So, I'm trying again: if you can bear it!


Peter Kreeft, in his new book, states the following:


"Your origin and your nature are the key to your destiny, your purpose in life. If you are only dust, then your destiny is only dust—"to dust you shall return"—for you are only a body, not an immortal soul. At the opposite extreme, if you are a god or goddess, born in Heaven and somehow lost on earth, then your destiny is to escape the earth and the mortal body and return home, like ET. You don't belong here. The Christian answer is neither of these. You belong here because God created you and put you here, but you are a soul as well as a body, and your destiny is to grow in perfection of both body and soul, both here and in Heaven after death.


Our modern secular culture tells you the first answer: you are dust, you are a clever ape. Some New Age type religions tell you the second answer, that you are not an animal but an angel, a pure spirit. Christianity tells you a third answer. Which answer you believe makes a difference to everything in your life, because it's a different "you"." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer (Highlight, mine)



Dr Hay, you say:


the plausibility of any particular religious faith has to be argued separately, on theological or philosophical grounds, after the question of universality has been settled. But surely the question of universality isn't only the domain of empirical, experiential, reasoning? I.e., that empirical reasoning isn't 'bad', but that as a Christian, metaphysical and supernatural considerations have to count, and in the case of Catholicism, these take precedence in the area of knowledge of God because fallible experience can be so misled.


What I'm arguing is that claiming measurable 'religious experience' as being 'naturally religious', is making a huge metaphysical assumption which is unwarranted if you don't buy into the empirical paradigm as the primary source of knowledge of God, or the universality ('ground') of religion. That is, the question of universality also has to be decided on theological and philosophical foundations. And, yes, I agree, it has to be settled first.


Firstly, I find it very hard accepting religion as a natural property, as it either removes the possibility of free will, or one ends up determined or predestined (for heaven or hell), and therefore denies the the full existential impact of one's choices on one's destiny (Kreeft's 'different "you"'). The person is a unity of body and soul: not a totally free spirit - not totally determined matter-in-motion. The human person is a unity of body and soul (qv CCC 362-368). #366 is particularly important. The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not 'produced' by the parents - and also that it is immortal.... So, we would argue it's not an issue of genes or any other natural process.


Secondly, "Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee", and Augustine is talking about absence, privation, not an experience (which would be a presence). Evil is privation (at its simplest, original sin), Good is act: perfection of being. We long for God because we are separated from Him in this life - 'see through a glass dimly', we are not act, but being in the making, incomplete, imperfect. But this isn't experienced is some occasionally altered mental states. It is constant, part of our essence, not our existence because it is not determined by physical/material characteristics. More importantly, because it is privation, there is the constant possibility of rejecting it, therefore, the possibility of damnation, whereas 'naturally religious' based in the empirically observable - matter - could mean everyone's going to heaven, or a subset of people with the right, 'predestined', makeup, genetic, or otherwise, will do so.


The whole of Catholic Theology seems to be shot through with the idea that it is the absence, the separation which which makes us long for God, rather than starting with some mystical, an inner experience of Him, and so is cautious about private revelation as in a report this week: www.zenit.org/article-21962?l=english). Mystical experience is granted, but to a few. If this was not the case, and man were 'naturally religious', everyone would potentially have faith, and nothing would be involved in receiving it and it would be determined by physical properties (genes, or some sort of spiritual 'memes') - hence my remarks on Protestantism and predestination. Whatever, it would be a claim to some form of determinism or lack of free will.


"Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles."Romans 1.20-23


Our minds can be rise to the knowledge of God by reflecting upon creation. (CCC 1147) This is not an argument for subjective mental states, i.e., immanentism, but it is a language of signs and symbols speaking to us all the time, not only in prayer or mystical states. It is something wholly objective. Therefore, we worship God, not because we've experienced Him, or 'feel' like it, but that it is our duty.


As Vatican I states, in the Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chap. 2, On Revelation


1. The same Holy mother Church holds and teaches that God, the source and end of all things, can be known with certainty from the consideration of created things, by the natural power of human reason: ever since the creation of the world, his invisible nature has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. 2. It was, however, pleasing to his wisdom and goodness to reveal himself and the eternal laws of his will to the human race by another, and that a supernatural, way. This is how the Apostle puts it: In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the prophets; but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son. 3. It is indeed thanks to this divine revelation, that those matters concerning God which are not of themselves beyond the scope of human reason, can, even in the present state of the human race, be known by everyone without difficulty, with firm certitude and with no intermingling of error. 4. It is not because of this that one must hold revelation to be absolutely necessary; the reason is that God directed human beings to a supernatural end, that is a sharing in the good things of God that utterly surpasses the understanding of the human mind; indeed eye has not seen, neither has ear heard, nor has it come into our hearts to conceive what things God has prepared for those who love him.


---


The key passage, in the Catechism is, CCC 27-43: Man's Capacity for God, which doesn't list inner experience or imply it anywhere. 'Inner experience' is too unreliable, it could be experience of anything. Hence, the Chesterton quote, earlier. And why Catholics don't base their theology upon it.


As the CCC states:


36 "Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason." Without this capacity, man would not

Paul Rodden 6 Mar

... be able to welcome God's revelation. Man has this capacity because he is created "in the image of God".


37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:


37 Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. The human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.


38 This is why man stands in need of being enlightened by God's revelation, not only about those things that exceed his understanding, but also "about those religious and moral truths which of themselves are not beyond the grasp of human reason, so that even in the present condition of the human race, they can be known by all men with ease, with firm certainty and with no admixture of error". (Highlights, mine)


---


So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful., and maybe what they'd like to be true, true...


Hence, why I could not take individual experience as proof of anything religious, even if observed 'scientifically'.

David Hay 6 Mar

Responding to Chris. Thanks for your remarks; I appreciate your interest. In referring to Theravada Buddhism as atheist I’m simply following a convention that distinguishes it from the Mahayana and the notion of Bodhisattvas (I know that folk Buddhism is much fuzzier about this in practice). It is the same convention I was taught when I first went to learn vipassana from a Thai monk about thirty years ago. What scholars have done to complicate these ideas since then I have no idea, but I guess most western monotheists would have a good idea of what I mean. Otherwise how would the ultra orthodox amongst us know to get shirty when Meister Eckhart got dangerously close to monism?



To repeat myself, I am talking about the existence of a human universal, let’s call it spiritual awareness, which since it is a universal means that everybody has it, including well known critics who categorise religion as a dangerous delusion. Alister Hardy hypothesised that this awareness is not a delusion, and has evolved through natural selection because it has survival value. There are many atheists who recognize this spiritual dimension, including in my opinion Dawkins. And you are right, definition is a huge and perennial problem tackled by many great thinkers, including William James and Rudolf Otto. I’ve been suggesting to others that they have a look at my book "Something There" where I have my own humble crack at setting some parameters based on my empirical research over quite a few years. Refusing to do research just because a phenomenon is unclear is a Cartesian prejudice which would close off many important areas of life from investigation. We struggle on and now and then the mist clears away a bit.


David Hay 6 Mar

Dear Paul, I’ve avoided responding to you so far because although like you I profess to be a Catholic, I am not a theologian or a philosopher. It is one of my disappointments that more theologians have not chosen to enter into sympathetic dialogue with what Alister Hardy was trying to do. Alister was a deeply religious man, committed from his youth to bringing about a rapprochement between science and religion. I have the same desire, but like him, all my formal training has been in empirical science. Hence empirical data loom large for me when it comes to deciding questions of truth and falsehood, and I am suspicious of beliefs that have to be accepted simply because some important individual announces them. Assent requires more than that; at the very least (if you believe in something like anamnesis) a heartfelt recognition of a correspondence between the announcement and one’s own deepest instincts. Catholics are constantly accused of blind obedience and it seems to me that in some cases the accusation is correct. Newman’s remark ā€˜I drink to the Pope, but to my conscience first’ is a saying I agree with



Finally, three puzzles:



Ā· I’m puzzled by your dismissal of bodily awareness as the source of dependable knowledge, including knowledge of God. Whilst of course we have to be discerning, our bodies are surely part and parcel of God given reality, especially obvious in the case of Christians, I would have thought, because of the Incarnation,



Ā· I don’t understand why embodiment implies determinism. Is this some philosophical point that I have not heard of?



Ā· Augustine’s famous remark surely implies that we do already in this world find rest in God, and once we realize that God is in all things, (or putting it in St Paul’s terms, we learn to pray without ceasing), then our hearts are fully at rest. And surely, more than almost any other text in Western literature, Augustine’s Confessions are an astonishing and moving example of that?




Paul Rodden 7 Mar

Hello, Dr Hay, I now know where I have been unclear. I am no academic, and am not very good with words, but I will try to address the puzzles you have..


I am sorry if I seemed to dismissed bodily awareness, in fact the opposite is true. The incarnation is at the very core. Our natures reflect this.


Our very physicality necessitates determinism, if that is all we are. I can't stretch further than I can stretch, I can't change my hair colour. These things are part of my biologically determined physicality in space and time. But, they are not me. There is a self, which is both free, but also somewhat socially constructed, but one can listen to or read about other ideas, or one can visit other cultures, and one has a capacity to choose and change, as one does to submit or not submit to the Gospel.


Clive James is reported to have said, "All you have to do on television is be yourself, provided, that is, that you have a self to be." 'Observer', 1981. And this 'self' is not part of my genes, my chemistry (although an atheist is likely to disagree), but a subsisting being within the bodily complex, but not like a ghost in the machine. It is a soul, which experiences the external world through the senses.


To be at rest, is to be perfect or complete - to have 'actualised one's potential', in Aristotelian terms. I have problems with that idea in a finite, wounded world. The only place where there is such rest or perfection is 'resting in Thee', as in after death: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." 1 Cor. 13:12-13.


"But the greatest of these is charity" This is at the basis of both the messages of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI. In John Paul II, it was his Theology of the Body, of which, George Weigel stated: "The theology of the body is one of the boldest configurations of Catholic theology in centuries... a kind of theological time bomb set to go off with dramatic consequences, sometime in the third millennium of the Church."


The whole concept of the nuptial or spousal meaning of the body, and how important the body is in expressing or reflecting - through incarnation - the divine life of the Trinity, through marriage, the conjugal act, family, and children. It's not mystical, it's actually the experience of the other - the spouse - male and female - that gives us the insight into God: through loving our neighbour through acts of self-donation, not self-reflection or self-absorption. It is a radical movement out of self towards the beloved. One understands one's relationship with God only through living out the Trinitarian life in ordered rather than disordered relationships, through the grace this gives. It is the coming together of the Eucharist, sex, and heaven.


Or as William May (one of our Church's most conservative moral theologians) puts it: "This teaching so eloquently proclaimed by Pope John Paul II is rooted in the dignity of men and women as sexual beings made in God's image and likeness, and whom we are to love for themselves and never to use as objects of enjoyment."


It is by losing oneself one gains it - not through trances, meditation, or altered brain-states, but through loving. The Word becomes flesh. If physiochemical events were all there was to it, the most narcissistic among us would be closest to God, reflecting on ourselves and our experiences, like in Eastern religions.


It is about becoming 'one flesh'. Jesus Christ: one flesh, yet fully God and fully man, through the incarnation. Male and female: one flesh, through the marital bond.


Pope Benedict talks about the relationship between eros and agape in his encyclical, Deus Caritas Est.


The 'mark' of the spiritual is genuine love, one sees persons as Christ sees them.


What you describe, seems to be eros - an emotionally, physically-driven desire or experience - devoid of an agape, which takes it out of itself to union with the other, meaning other human persons, and only very rarely the Other, which is a rare grace indeed.


---


...7. By their own inner logic, these initial, somewhat philosophical reflections on the essence of love have now brought us to the threshold of biblical faith. We began by asking whether the different, or even opposed, meanings of the word ā€œloveā€ point to some profound underlying unity, or whether on the contrary they must remain unconnected, one alongside the other. More significantly, though, we questioned whether the message of love proclaimed to us by the Bible and the Church's Tradition has some points of contact with the common human experience of love, or whether it is opposed to that experience. This in turn led us to consider two fundamental words: eros, as a term to indicate ā€œworldlyā€ love and agape, referring to love grounded in and shaped by faith. The two notions are often contrasted as ā€œascendingā€ love and ā€œdescendingā€ love. There are other, similar classifications, such as the distinction between possessive love and oblative love (amor concupiscentiae – amor benevolentiae), to which is sometimes also added love that seeks its own advantage.


In philosophical and theological debate, these distinctions have often been radicalized to the point of establishing a clear antithesis between them: descending, oblative love—agape—would be typically Christian, while on the other hand ascending, possessive or covetous love—eros—would be typical of non-Christian, and particularly Greek culture. Were this antithesis to be taken to extremes, the essence of Christianity would be detached from the vital relations fundamental to human existence, and would become a world apart, admirable perhaps, but decisively cut off from the complex fabric of human life. Yet eros and agape—ascending love and descending love—can never be completely separated. The more the two, in their different aspects, find a proper unity in the one reality of love, the more the true nature of love in general is realized. Even if eros is at first mainly covetous and ascending, a fascination for the great promise of happiness, in drawing near to the other, it is less and less concerned with itself, increasingly seeks the happiness of the other, is concerned more and more with the beloved, bestows itself and wants to ā€œbe there forā€ the other. The element of agape thus enters into this love, for otherwise eros is impoverished and even loses its own nature. On the other hand, man cannot live by oblative, descending love alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift. Certainly, as the Lord tells us, one can become a source from which rivers of living water flow (cf. Jn 7:37-38). Yet to become such a source, one must constantly drink anew from the original source, which is Jesus Christ, from whose pierced heart flows the love of God (cf. Jn 19:34). ...


While the biblical narrative does not speak of punishment, the idea is certainly present that man is somehow incomplete, driven by nature to seek in another the part that can make him whole, the idea that only in communion with the opposite sex can he become ā€œcompleteā€. The biblical account thus concludes with a prophecy about Adam: ā€œTherefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife and they become one fleshā€ (Gen 2:24).


Two aspects of this are important. First, eros is somehow rooted in man's very nature; Adam is a seeker, who ā€œabandons his mother and fatherā€ in order to find woman; only together do the two represent complete humanity and become ā€œone fleshā€. The second aspect is equally imp

Paul Rodden 7 Mar

...ortant. From the standpoint of creation, eros directs man towards marriage, to a bond which is unique and definitive; thus, and only thus, does it fulfil its deepest purpose. Corresponding to the image of a monotheistic God is monogamous marriage. Marriage based on exclusive and definitive love becomes the icon of the relationship between God and his people and vice versa. God's way of loving becomes the measure of human love. This close connection between eros and marriage in the Bible has practically no equivalent in extra-biblical literature. Deus Caritas Est

David Hay 7 Mar

Well I certainly agree that 'Deus Caritas Est' and with the distinction you make between eros and agape. I think I vaguely grasp what you are saying about the transformation of one into the other - or maybe not. Unfortunately, and no doubt this is due to my lack of theological background, I often lose the thread of what you are saying. It confirms my disappointment that there has not been a much more basic dialogue between empiricists like myself, researching and publishing in scientific journals on religious matters, and theologians. For the time being I think I'll just have to say 'God bless you' and leave it at that.

Chris 7 Mar

To Dr Hays. I can understand why Buddhism might be classified in the simple way that you describe. I find that 'non-theistic' is quite widely used as a description of, at least, Theravada nowadays. I think there is a very fruitful discussion to be had that compares religious ideas of transcendence.



As to the scientfic investigation of unusual mind states often considered as 'religious', I have no difficulty with this. It follows a long tradition arguably reinvigorated by William James. Perhaps Aldous Huxley's 'Perennial Philosophy' also fits within this strand. Empirical investigation of mind-states is part of Buddhist practice and hence in sympathy with the scientfic outlook.



I guess the idea of 'Buddhanature' also supports the ability of humans to transcend conditioning and to realise enlightened mind states.



I agree that scientific research can sidestep definitions to some extent by simplifying down to a few clear and measurable factors, although definitions and meanings do become critical when comparing the experiences being measured with religious ideas.



Unfortunately my experience is that it is very easy for theologians to become completelely lost in and deluded by words and concepts. However this is a common problem for all of us!

David Hay 7 Mar

FROM DAVID HAY



ANYONE WHO WOULD LIKE TO READ A DETAILED ACCOUNT OF MY CENTRAL HYPOTHESIS ABOUT THE DIFFICULTY OF SPIRITUALITY (AND THEREFORE RELIGION) FOR WESTERNERS CAN FIND IT BY COPYING AND PASTING THE FOLLOWING URL INTO THE ADDRESS LINE:


http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/Why_spirituality_is_difficult_for_Westerners.aspx?ArticleID=1907&PageID=71&RefPageID=70


Greywizard 7 Mar

Paul Rodden -- I'm sorry, Paul, but I have to say it -- has been going on at length in the most reactionary catholic fashion imaginable about something that he (apparently, though reason could not endorse such nonsense) believes. Good for him. He's entitled to believe that there is a celestial teapot if he likes (but don't do it in Malaysia!). But he should take a look at the head honcho in the Vatican, and what he's been up to lately. Apparently, Benedict, of evil memory, and Al-Azhar university in Cairo have banded together -- such a doughty crew! -- and have agreed that no one should be allowed to make fun of them! Just imagine where religious experience can take you! You can read all about it here:



http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=56940:



Now, let's acknowledge that we're dealing with questions of power and privilege, not reality and truth, no matter how many complicated ways you have of saying it. All the wonderful language of eros and agape, or to change the language, of caritas, isn't going to change the fact that these are people who need to be in charge, and in charge of other people who have no realtionship with them if at all possible. (They know the truth, after all!) It's pathetic to go on talking about the useful intervention of religion in public life when this is kind of thing that religions do, and do all the time.

David Hay 8 Mar

I find myself wanting to defend Paul Rodden a little more strongly than simply saying he has a right to believe any old rubbish. Suppose for a moment that religion is natural to us – and that after all is the subject of the current debate. However sure you are that you are right (for atheists too have their dogmatic certainties) the default position of the majority of the human species at all times and everywhere is one of religious belief. Even Richard Dawkins finds himself being somewhat self-contradictory on that point, for having proved to his own satisfaction that religion is a great evil, he then goes on to explain (qua Boyer) how it helps (or he would say, used to help) us to survive.



I think he is right about its survival function, and his own old professor at Oxford, Alister Hardy, created the Religious Experience Research Unit to investigate the plausibility of that view, considered not as a matter of religious belief, but as a testable scientific hypothesis. As I have indicated earlier in this debate, the empirical evidence accumulated since 1969 when Hardy founded the Unit, and more especially during the past ten years, strongly supports his hypothesis and runs counter to the main explanatory hypotheses that assert that religion is no more than a mega-blunder on the part of our species.



Suppose then, just as an heuristic exercise, that religious awareness is a reality, how would we deal with that reality? Exactly in parallel with the way we deal with all empirical data, by creating what to us are plausible narratives to enable us to interact with that reality and survive. In time these become incorporated into both the very simple and the highly sophisticated doctrinal systems of the multitude of religions.



With the arrival of the scientific method a particularly powerful way of testing our narratives becomes available, but don’t kid yourself that it is somehow emancipated from the need for doctrine - as the shelf-fuls of fat scientific text books in my crowded library demonstrate. Furthermore, I, like every other scientist, have only personally tested a very tiny fraction of the assertions in those texts – life is too short – so I have to take most of them on trust. And that trust is based on my education within a scientific culture for however many years I was in school or university.



The crunch problem is ā€˜Who or what do I trust?’ and Paul Rodden has made his choice, based on his education. Even if, as you think, his choice is mistaken, the underlying reality does not dissolve into nothing, any more than a mistaken hypothesis – let’s say the notion of phlogiston – means that the process of burning is a fantasy. I say that you can’t explain away the religions as ā€˜nothing but’ nonsense or stupidity, or as a useful fiction, or as a virus infection or evil. Religions, like every other great social institution, are a mixed bag of wisdom and nonsense, good and evil. In the religion I belong to, the two great commandments are both about love – of God and neighbour – and even if you dismiss my belief in God, I would be surprised if you reject Jesus’ answer to the question ā€˜Who is my neighbour?’




Paul Rodden 8 Mar

I feel I have to declare my colours this post (rather than being servant of the Church, despite coming to know she is right).


I believe the empirical is incredibly important in the discernment of religious experience. There. I've said it!


My final dissertation in my undergraduate studies was entitled, Deception in Perception, and my objective was to look at religious experience and 'mental illness' primarily through the lens of the Psychology of Religion. It's experience of other person's, not experiences of their experiences, that's important.


I looked at research on schizophrenia, some work done at the Maudsley, Flannagan and Rorty, Thomas Szasz, Bernard Lonergan, RD Laing, Frank Lake's 'magisterial' Clinical Theology, The Book of Margery Kempe, Batson's Commitment Without Ideology, Jack Dominian, and numerous other works (and a couple of earlier papers from your unit, Dr Hay!).


My difficulty, and hence the topic, was with the issue of how so many people who claim to be religious, and more specifically, claim to have direct revelational experience, can perform such horrendous and grotesque acts in the name of the 'God' they have 'experienced', and how orgiastic/shamanistic religion and the 'worship' of charismatics seemed more like hysteria. So my question was: Are they just bonkers? And if so, how can you tell them apart? Is there a genuine religious experience?


Owing to the problem of private minds, and the research, I concluded that one can clearly see and measure that people have experiences, but one cannot say what they are because this aspect of it is utterly private. One can only assume: what they are experiencing from the outside and label it - or alternatively - that the subject's reporting of what was happening was reliable, accurate and/or truthful (i.e., not that they had experienced something, but that they were not lying or trying to deceive the researcher). But, if their reporting of what was happening is accurate, based on research into the claims, then God seems to be more a subjective mental construct - in man's image - than anything objective.


Gradually however, a couple of themes emerged.


One was the ideas of 'bias' and 'scotoma' Bernard Lonergan brings out in his book Insight (as well as philosophical research into self-deception and akrasia), and how these affect what could be claimed to be genuine knowledge and insight (Lonergan based a lot of his thinking on Newman's Grammar, and his Letter to the Duke of Norfolf, on conscience.


The second, were the various Biblical admonitions such as, 'Out of the heart, the mouth speaks' (Luke 6:45), 'By their fruits...' (Matt. 7.16,20), etc.


Lonergan's analysis of cognition, for me, takes one from raw experience to knowledge, and the only way to refute his model is to use it. That is, one has to use his 'transcendental precepts' to refute them! But, more importantly, what he shows, is how action flows from knowledge (what do I do with that knowledge?), that is how there is a seamless link between knowledge and action, the empirical and the ethical, pace David Hume and his 'fork'.


I was vaguely dissatisfied with this result, but it did convince me that cognition was related to action, and that a dualistic/cartesian view of the person was mistaken, despite appearances. That is, we are not merely 'bodies', nor are we a 'ghost in a machine'. (Koestler's comments on the modern penchant for a 'ratomophic view of man', are perceptive.)


My biggest excitement came several years later when I came across the work of Karol Wojtyla, especially his essay, The Acting Person. In many ways he's like Lonergan, but he goes way beyond him, but more importantly, doesn't rely on a form of Kantianism, but phenomenology. It takes the person seriously, not only cognition, but more importantly, that the person is making themselves, they are coming to be, and that we constantly have to be conscious of the ethical implications of self-deception.


This study was the thing that led me back to the Catholic Church: the fact one can't rely on personal revelation to claim truth. Instead, action in alignment with doctrine has to be at the heart: that one cannot discern on one's own. That tradition and knowledge don't just plop into individual minds through experience or revelation but by many strands, and that Alasdair MacIntyre's After Virtue, is so important in coming to an understanding of this. We make knowledge together, and we do it historically. Wojtyla's work on solidarity points this out. Secular humanism: I. Buber: I-Thou. Wojtyla: We.


That is, religion, to my way of thinking, brings solidarity. That is its hallmark in an existential sense.


There is nothing I can point to in Catholic dogma that I can claim, or to which I can turn, to justify anything which in anyway undermines the dignity of every human person whatsoever, including the disabled and unborn. In fact, it's the reverse.


For me, the dogma of the Church is firstly the only, and secondly, the most accurate interpretation, codification, and development of Christ's teachings, and the whole drama of scripture and, as a result, the supreme guarantor of human life and dignity in the world (when Catholics have the courage of their convictions to put it into practice).


Many say that because I claim to know the truth, I'm arrogant. Now, if I didn't consider myself a servant of the truth, then, yes I would be. But I suppose, in their opinion, the best way to be a servant, is to ignore, to question, or deliberately disobey, one's master. Surely, that's arrogance? Where is community without servanthood and solidarity?


Therefore, I think man is not 'naturally religious', but one could say he is fundamentally open to the supernatural. This is reflected in the dogma we hold that spouses should be open to each other, and open to life through the conjugal act), as imago dei. Openness cannot be conditioned in the same way some specific trait can be. The 'contraceptive mentality' doesn't only only affect procreation, it affects the way we think about the world and others, and with it, comes The Culture of Death. Pre-natal: Contraception-Abortion. Post-natal: Totalitarianism-Genocide. These are products of 'natural religion', for natural religion was a product of the Enlightenment. God dethroned, man enthroned - but then it still remains to be decided which man will be top-dog, and whom should one follow? Who is my neighbour?

Greywizard 8 Mar

Okay (this is mainly in response to David's response to what I said about Paul's posts). I find it hard to deal with text like this, and that was my point.



"In philosophical and theological debate, these distinctions have often been radicalized to the point of establishing a clear antithesis between them: descending, oblative love—agape—would be typically Christian, while on the other hand ascending, possessive or covetous love—eros—would be typical of non-Christian, and particularly Greek culture. Were this antithesis to be taken to extremes, the essence of Christianity would be detached from the vital relations fundamental to human existence, and would become a world apart, admirable perhaps, but decisively cut off from the complex fabric of human life. Yet eros and agape—ascending love and descending love—can never be completely separated. The more the two, in their different aspects, find a proper unity in the one reality of love, the more the true nature of love in general is realized. Even if eros is at first mainly covetous and ascending, a fascination for the great promise of happiness, in drawing near to the other, it is less and less concerned with itself, increasingly seeks the happiness of the other, is concerned more and more with the beloved, bestows itself and wants to ā€œbe there forā€ the other. The element of agape thus enters into this love, for otherwise eros is impoverished and even loses its own nature. On the other hand, man cannot live by oblative, descending love alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift. Certainly, as the Lord tells us, one can become a source from which rivers of living water flow (cf. Jn 7:37-38). Yet to become such a source, one must constantly drink anew from the original source, which is Jesus Christ, from whose pierced heart flows the love of God (cf. Jn 19:34). ... "



In fact, I think this bit of turgid theologising originates in Benedicts 'Deus Caritas Est.' Interesting that the translators decided to talk in terms of 'oblative love' and not 'sacrificial love'. (Is the idea here to attach it to the eucharistic mystery?) But the more interesting thing is that, from my own understanding, anyway, the New Testament does not make such a careful distinction between types of love, and often uses eros where Christians would now use agape. But mainly these are just words without some sort of empirical basis. All we are given is a questionable authority. We just have to accept this nonsense and suppose that it says something about reality, about the reality of love.



But it's just dogma, nothing more. Where is it's grounding? Paul seems to acknowledge that there is none, and that, so long as he acknowledges he is a 'servant of the truth', his claim to truth is not arrogant. However, you'll find, David, that all the scientific tomes on your shelves, whether you've had a chance to confirm their findings or not, have a methodlogy for grounding and vetting empirical claims. So, if biologists are wrong about altruism as a selectional pressure of some kind, this can be shown empirically or mathematically. You may be able to reproduce the experimental results yourself, or, life being short, you may have to take it on trust. But when it's taken on trust "all the way back", that's when the question of claims to truth really cash themselves in.



I mean, look at what Paul calls 'the contraceptive mentality.' This has got to be the most offensive statement yet, except there's one even worse. Following the Vatican line to the letter, which has begun using it as a code word for modernity, Paul speaks of 'the culture of death.' I won't give those words Paul's respectful caps and italics. Is the suggestion, really, that contraception-abortion leads to totalitarianism-genocide? Given the church's totalitarian excesses, almost from the day of it's inception, and its systemic intolerance (see Ludemann's "Intolerance and the Gospel"), this is absurd. Contraception, and where necessary, abortion, have been permitted unprolematically only in societies that permit great latitude for freedom of thought and action.



Paul claims, in an amazing remark that he cannot find anything in catholic dogma which undermines the dignity of (and I think he really means) 'any' human being. How about the priesthood? (which is reserved to males) How about the opprobrium heaped by the catholic church on artificial birth control, which has enabled women, for the first time in history, to achieve some sort of control over their own fertility and therefore more control over their own lives? Those are two assaults on human dignity and freedom which have no place in a modern society. Paul doesn't think, apparently, that it is an offence against human dignity to refuse a twelve year old girl, pregnant by her father (or perhaps her priest), to get an abortion. This is simply monstrous. Talk about a culture of death. Who is my neighbour? Well, amongst others, that little girl. And there's no point talking tendentiously about I, I-Thou, and We, as Paul does. We, very often, turns out to be me, especially when you're dealing with a pope. It's only we if we agree.



Do I want to explain away religion as empty nothing? No, I don't think we know enough about religions to be able to say. Are they a side effect of evolutionary pressures that had a quite different purpose? Are religious memes (and I think the idea of memes as a second replicator needs to be explored in more depth) simply good at keeping alive in the meme sphere, and attaching themselves to the wierd experiences that people have? We may have experiences that get to be called religious or spiritual. But what is the evidence for calling them that? Perhaps those experiences are really 'about' something completely different. And that they should be unfolded in complex systems of theology, without any empirical basis at all, goes beyond reason, in my view, and, as with the catholic church's silly (yes silly) condemnation of artificial birth control, can do much harm. Religions do good too, undoubtedly. I rather suspect that the harm outweighs the good, and the greatest harm that I think religion causes is a contempt for truth.


Paul Rodden 8 Mar

You say of our sort of comments (i.e, believers), Greywiz, "But mainly these are just words without some sort of empirical basis."


So what is the following?


"Given the church's totalitarian excesses, almost from the day of it's inception, and its systemic intolerance (see Ludemann's "Intolerance and the Gospel"), this is absurd. Contraception, and where necessary, abortion, have been permitted unprolematically only in societies that permit great latitude for freedom of thought and action." So, Ludemann's a scientist?


"We, very often, turns out to be me, especially when you're dealing with a pope. It's only we if we agree." And your empirical evidence is where, exactly?


You also say, "Paul doesn't think, apparently, that it is an offence against human dignity to refuse a twelve year old girl, pregnant by her father (or perhaps her priest), to get an abortion. This is simply monstrous." Catholics say both should live, you argue only one should live.


Isn't that an example of 'the culture of death'? Aren't you mistaking 'quality of life' for what we mean by dignity? They are not synonymous. Dignity for us doesn't mean 'preventing embarrassment' or 'make life (or death) easier', whereas it clearly does for you.


The contraception-abortion mentality doesn't cause the totalitarian-genocide paradigm. They are isomorphic. Contraception and totalitarianism are both closed to creativity and life, abortion and genocide are both ways of ensuring the excesses of the first elements of the couplets - control of the family/control of the state - a post-coital, post-revolutionary response to what was seen as in error. It is inhuman because it's focus is on outcomes, not persons. It is freedom only for the one in control.


Greywiz, as I've said before here, I try to be an exemplar of my philosophy - I try to live it out - so I try to make my posts fit what I claim, as much as possible. I don't claim empiricism as the only valid epistemological model, so I am free to use other approaches.


You, however, claim empiricism as your benchmark, and whack Christians over the head with it, but hardly ever use it when you post. You use hearsay, speculation, and stereotypes. And nearly all your examples are from (very selective) historical data, which, is not a scientific, but an interpretive discipline. The New Atheists do the same. They don't use the very methods they champion. What sense does this make?


As I try to be faithful to my Church, I think I can claim 'we'. To whom are you faithful? And if it's your own powers of reasoning, then it is I too, isn't it? So, even if the 'we', is I in my case, then aren't we at least starting from the same place? Yet, you seem to be implying your position is superior, otherwise you wouldn't call my position 'tendentious'.


My neighbour is the little girl and her in utero child as well as the perpetrators in your example, for I have to live with them too, as I can't just ignore them as if they'll just go away.


You've implied your neighbour is just the little girl. It's a ratio of 4:1. Who's the monster?


Maybe religion does show a contempt for truth, but isn't that better than a contempt for life? And which of us shows which?

Greywizard 9 Mar

Well, Paul, if you think you can be for both the 12 year old girl and the 'life' within her, then you're dreaming. I'm sorry, that's simply a dream. And if you think that your position (or that of the grey eminences in the Vatican) is on the side of life, then go visit the poor kid who's forced to deliver a life she never sought.



I can't find it on such short notice, but read Lawrence Tribe's "Abortion: The Clash of Absolutes", where such a case is described. In desperation, in the end, she jumped off her father's garage roof. She aborted the child, but she died. Please save me the moral arrogance: "Catholics say both should live."



No, Ludemann's not a scientist. He's a biblical scholar who analyses, in detail, the intolerance of early Christianity represented in the New Testament. But the evidence, for all that, is there.



What do you mean by your claim that contraception/abortion is isomorphic with totalitarianism/genocide? 'Contraception is closed to creativity and life.' That's disproved by practically every catholic couple in the western world, who quite clearly use contraception to limit the size of their families, not to close them to creativity and life. This is absurd..



Please explain where you think I have 'whacked you over the head' -- did you really mean this?! -- with empricism? When have I not used it as a benchmark? I'm not sure I understand. Where have I used hearsay, speculation and stereotypes? Please, tell me.



And, by the way, history may be an interpretive discipline, but to suppose that it has no empirical basis is to give up the discipline of history altogether.



And, by the way, I do not depend on my own powers of reasoning. I expect others will see the point too. And then we will really be a 'we'. But if you simply accept, as you have already said, the authority of the magisterium, you'll never be a 'we'. It just doesn't work that way.



My neighbour is still the little girl, and if you think that poor little girl lying dead on the ground is better than a reasonable opportunity for her to live a full life, without the imposition of someone else's moral demands on her little body, then, they (and you, in this case) are the monsters. If standing up for her is showing contempt for life, then I'll take that everytime. But you're still left with the lie.

David Hay 9 Mar

Our debate wanders off into all sorts of side issues and at the moment is absorbed by the question of what constitutes a loving act. This is interesting and vitally important, but the subject of another debate. Is one of the confusing factors a mixing up of what the basic message of any religion is and the fallibility, power struggles and plain corruption we encounter in the practical attempt at working out the social implications of the original message? Taking the example of the religion I know best, as a small child I was taught by my mother that the heart of the matter was in the Sermon on the Mount. Before ever there is such a thing as biblical scholarship, or doctrinal debate, or social and political organization, or any other kind of extended approach to reality, we learn a culture at this simple level where intuition, as much as, or more than conscious rationality, is what guides us.



Isn’t this what Emmanuel Levinas is getting at when he write of ā€˜ethics as first philosophy’ and how when we gaze directly at another person we find a moral obligation in ourselves that is prior to any intellectualisation whatsoever. Why is there crime then, and bad behaviour in general? What about the extremes of cruelty of which we are capable? People remark on Levinas’ naĆÆve optimism about human nature, especially in view of the fact that he was Jewish and lost his family in the Holocaust. What happened to the elemental gaze of the concentration camp guards who slaughtered them? Levinas would say that the guards had learned, or been trained to switch off their gaze. There is much evidence of the difficulty of doing this, as Heinrich Himmler himself acknowledged in his notorious secret speech to extermination camp personnel in Poznan in 1943.



My own view of this matter is discussed in ā€œSomething Thereā€ and in the book I wrote with Rebecca Nye entitled ā€œThe Spirit of the Childā€. During the 1990s we made an in-depth study of the spiritual life of groups of children in schools in Nottingham and Birmingham. The great majority of these kids had no formal connection with any religious body, yet we found a dimension of awareness in all of them, without exception, which after a lengthy analysis of their conversation we labelled ā€˜relational consciousness’. That meant a primordial sense of continuity with other people, the environment, and a pervasive presence of totality. The work of the Hungarian child psychologist Emese Nagy on intersubjective awareness in newborn children implies that relational consciousness is there from the beginning, a biologically inbuilt feature of Homo sapiens. My hypothesis is that relational consciousness is the natural root of our ethical and religious creativity, and as I have said elsewhere a major reason for the difficulties of religion and ethics in Western culture is the extreme individualism of our society, which is completely at odds with relational consciousness. See especially chapter 9 of my ā€œSomething Thereā€, reproduced within this website at:


http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/Why_spirituality_is_difficult_for_Westerners.aspx?ArticleID=1907&PageID=71&RefPageID=70


Greywizard 9 Mar

David, while I question your history of how the elemental gaze of the child, which, I agree, is probably the basis of ethical creativity, has been distracted and corrupted by individualism -- and before we turn to religious creativity -- we should limit ourselves to the human community in which relational consciousness is grounded. I do think it is completely vital to see that morality itself is something which does not, of itself, require religious confirmation, and is grounded in the way that we develop as human beings.



You remember learning your religion at your mother's knee. I learned my religion in a Christian boarding school, and it was far cry from the Sermon on the Mount. But just remember that the Sermon on the Mount -- whose morality is far from the benign thing that in English speaking cultures, at least, it is assumed to be, and therefore is already superladen with religio-cultural assumptions -- I grew up instead with a dread of hell that pervaded my whole life. To get an idea of just how twisted a child's gaze can get, just take a look at the BBCs "Baby Bible Bashers, here.



http://www.thoughttheater.com/2008/02/bbc_baby_bible_bashers_a_look_at_child_evangelists.php#c44981



My conern -- and I have indeed tried to keep the discussion away from side issues -- but it keeps coming back -- is that it is precisely the developed religious consciousness that cannot even begin to see that the human moral project is a human one, and that the relational consciousness and other early states of consciousness, which underlies it (see Marc Hauser's "Moral Minds" or Paul Blooms "Descartes' Baby") has no integral relationship to religious believing. Indeed, religious morality endeavours to objectify our sense of ourselves as moral beings by absolutising the child's gaze in terms of absolute distinctions and permissions/prohibitions. And so you end up with the obscenity of high placed dignitaries in Rome (or the Vatican) telling out and out lies about things like the porousness of condoms, or condoms impregnated with the AIDs virus, or you have a pregnant teenager in Ireland threatened with a refusal to leave the country to obtain and abortion, even though being forced to bear a child which was (as I recall, though the memory is a bit dim) the product of child rape, could conceivably have done lasting damage to her body and her life.



That's the problem, as I see it, with the attempt to ground religious believing in what you call 'relational consciousness', because it's going to bolster the religious case, and provide a basis for all the 'crazies' to come out and claim some sort of empirical grounding for their complex theologies, none of which (I suspect) have any basis in the kind of research that you were doing.



You speak of 'the difficulties of religion and ethics in Western culture.' Why do you yoke these things together? Is there something in common between religion and ethics? What is that common element? Is the suggestion that we can't have ethics without religion? Surely not, though this is often assumed. I think it has already been said at least once in this discussion. Religious morality, in practically every case, is absolutist, extremist, and often dehumanising. The religious believe they have a right to intrude themselves in the legitimate relationships of other peope. So, birth control is wrong, abortion is wrong, assisting a person in great suffering to die is wrong, non-procreative sex is wrong, gay and lesbian people are only defectively human, and may not exercise their sexual powers, women must be subordinate to men, it is wrong for a woman to be seen by herself in a public place, apostacy is wrong ..., and we could go on and on.



In saying these things I'm not coming to any conclusion with regard to your research, which I will read with interest. But your statement of it on the Theos website does give me some concern, because Theos is precisely a think-tank exploring the part that religion might play in a world in which the secular compromise is no longer honoured. These be the words: Theos aims to remind us of 'the timeless potential of religion to build community, to read the signs of the times, to cultivate wisdom and encourage human flourishing.' I see no evidence that religion has such a contribution to make. Indeed, in the contemporary world religion is more a force for division than for human flourishing. Look at the papers, full of religious homophobia, honour killings, forced marriages, the shrouding of women, death threats in the name of one god or another, demands for respect and correlative limitations of freedom of speech.

Paul Rodden 9 Mar

Hi Dr hay. Thank you for being patient and involving yourself fully in the discussion.


You say: "Isn’t this what Emmanuel Levinas is getting at when he write of ā€˜ethics as first philosophy’ and how when we gaze directly at another person we find a moral obligation in ourselves that is prior to any intellectualisation whatsoever. Why is there crime then, and bad behaviour in general?"


Absolutely. It is the law within, 'written on our hearts'. The Natural Law, not anything in our materiality. It is through synderesis we come by it, not an interior, measurable property of human bodily matter. Crime is the result of sin, but must not be conflated or treated as synonymous.


This 'first philosophy' or conscience, can be blunted and subverted habitually.


What I think 'Something There' shows in your prƩcis, is the openness to the spiritual, to which they might be responding. But it it could also be cultural conditioning, if it's merely observation by which we evaluate it. That is, my problem isn't with the experience, it's with the implied biological reductionism.


Emese Nagy on intersubjective awareness in newborn children implies that relational consciousness is there from the beginning, a biologically inbuilt feature of Homo sapiens. Inbuilt?: absolutely. Biologically?: Absolutely not.


The soul is the 'form' of the body, not synonymous with it. If it was biologically inbuilt, then it could be argued it was merely a matter of bio-chemistry 'that the guards had learned, or been trained to switch off their gaze'.


I would say it is a matter of will, otherwise one cannot hold anyone responsible for anything.


So are we always fully culpable? No. The Catechism grants there are mitigating factors which reduce the culpability of acts (CCC 1860), but to go down the route of any sort of biological determinism would let us off the hook (cf CCC 1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom...).


The result of biological determinism, as tacitly assumed in the media and culture is, in general: no responsibility, no culpability. People are victims, not agents.


It's fascinating that people talk about their kids being 'brainwashed' into cults, and being 'victims' of cults, but when it's Islam, they suddenly want to hold the Muslim utterly culpable.


We are bodily beings, we are spiritual beings, in unity, another example of the 'et-et', the 'both-and', as Pope Benedict puts it, or 'rationally dependent animals', as Alasdair MacIntyre puts it. 'I' existed pre-conception, we are created for eternity. If religion was a 'matter of matter', then religion would be restricted to corporeal existence alone. I can't believe it is, or else the whole of belief in the transcendent, or more specifically, the Gospel, goes out the window. Which, would make Greywiz, exceptionally happy.

Greywizard 9 Mar

How kind of Paul to think of me in his parting shot. If the gospel goes out the window, then I am going to be exceptionally happy.



On the contrary, if the gospel were true, I'd probably be happy, very happy indeed. Who wouldn't be? The problem is, of course, that there is no evidence -- let me repeat that -- no evidence -- that the gospel is true. In fact, it is so intuitively absurd, that only someone brainwashed in childhood or in crisis could believe in it.



As Nietzsche said in "Human, all to Human":



'When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: is it really possible! this for a Jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed -- whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions -- is perhaps the most ancient piece of this hertage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and the ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?'



And add to that pre-existence too, as a person. Is this actually taught by your catholic masters? Let alone post-existence, and eternal punishment after death, which your hero Benedict espouses. It's the real thing, you know, not just a symbol, as John Paul II used to claim.



If it were true, what is there not to celebrate? A world lost and forlorn, saved from eternal punishment by the sacrifice of the son of a god, who rises triumpantly from a rich man's grave? What is there not to celebrate in that?



And you want it really to be true, really to be true that we are fully responsible, fully reprehensible, fully deserving of the fate that awaits those who don't believe strictly in -- in what? -- in your beliefs? -- the popes? -- the catechism's -- I'm not so sure. What would you like to be true, so that all those eternal punishments, those burnings in hell for all eternity, would be deserved?



What would you like to be true? That we have true free will? That nothing determines our actions but our wills alone? That we are orignating creators of our own lives and destinies, as a god is thought to have created the univers? Doesn't square very well with modern cognitive science, but, hey!, what do they know? There is an eternal source of truth, and all you have to do is look it up! If you want to know a little bit more about what all this involves, why don't you read Owen Flanagan's "The Problem of the Soul." Well worth your while. Can't promise an indulgence, but you might actually step outside the charmed circle. And who knows, you might learn something more about et-et. But on what basis did you say, in your note, 'Absolutely not.' How do you know? Did you do the research? Have you got the evidence?



Don't forget. I'm the Hound of Heaven!


David Hay 10 Mar

I sense that unless we can be creative, this debate is going to come to nothing, bogged down in entrenched positions. I suppose I’m as entrenched as the next person, but from my own subjective perspective I am trying not to discard either religion or science, as ways that human beings have struggled to make sense of the strangeness of being here; ā€˜thrown’ as Heidegger liked to say. I want to see if a dialogue that is more than polemic can take place.



Seven years of university education, including working on physiology in a research lab, plus a love of the history of science, make me a keen advocate of the Enlightenment. My entire career has been in science. But I still wake up in the middle of the night, astonished that there is anything and not nothing. Plus, (and here the secular critics say ā€œah, religious brainwashingā€ or – quoting DSM – that I’m in the prodromal phase of schizophrenia) I am unable to deny without compromising my integrity, that in quiet prayer I am aware of something more than just the darkness.



Bizarre this may be to secularists, but it is the more or less universal testimony of all great religious cultures that this dimension of awareness is real and central to our human wellbeing. Furthermore, in more than thirty years of talking to people about their religious or spiritual experience, the universal testimony is that the effect of such experience is a desire to behave better. Trying to summarise what they say, it is as if the psychological distance between one’s self and the rest of reality becomes much shorter, so that the feeling is that harm to others or to the environment is somehow harm to one’s self.



That is why, although I often find him infuriatingly difficult to follow, I like Emmanuel Levinas. I think he sees more deeply than even Martin Buber into the essential ethical core of our human nature. Incidentally it is because of what Levinas says that I find myself disappointed with contemporary altruism theory in my own professional area of zoology. Reciprocal altruism and protection of my gene pool are Hobbesian in their self seeking and a world away from real altruism, as Levinas demonstrates (or more accessibly, Kirsten Monroe in her fine book on the heart of altruism).



What this is returning to is my hypothesis that relational consciousness is the natural underpinning of both Ethics and Religion: Ethics out of our direct here-and-now sense of obligation to the individual, and on the other side of the same coin, Religion, out of our awareness of the totality or the manifold. And just as a reminder, I say our clearest sense of the manifold is also experienced in the here-and-now, traditionally in our Western culture, in contemplative prayer. That is to say, religion and ethics, whilst having the same natural source, are logically distinct from each other. Religious people, as you regularly point out and I am forced to agree, frequently behave appallingly, whilst non-religious people can and often do live by the highest ethical standards, as indeed Feuerbach advocated (let’s avoid Stirner’s little fly in the ointment for the time being).



Greywizard, much of your anger is directed at the cruelty, corruption, powerbroking and doctrinal nonsense emerging from the religious institutions. At least we can share agreement on that. Institutional man, (and it is mostly men), seems inevitably to come a cropper, whatever institution it is, in manipulating the system. Zygmunt Bauman’s ā€œPostmodern Ethicsā€ is very enlightening on this fact, and if you haven’t read it, I can recommend his exposition on Levinas. I say it is because religion deals with supremely important questions that it is especially vulnerable to corruption. But I do not see how this invalidates our religious quest, or the aspiration to the highest of which we humans are possible, whether our religious experience is theistic (as mine is predominantly) atheistic, or as the mystics seem to be suggesting, both theistic and atheistic.



To summarise, if I am to maintain personal integrity I cannot drop either end of the often-painful tension between science and religion, which I say is imposed by our technically powerful but narrow-minded secular culture. The tension does not need aggravating, as the new atheists seem intent on doing, but resolving.





Greywizard 10 Mar

Thank you Dr. Hay for a very lucid contribution to what might be a productive conversation. But it will only be productive and creative if we can keep religious doctrine out of it. There is no future in that direction, and unfortunately, at the prese