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03 NOV

The Dawkins Delusion

Prof Alister E. McGrath
152
Comments | Latest by Daphtdazz , 28 Nov

Richard Dawkins’ latest book The God Delusion fires off a series of salvoes against religion. It is perhaps his weakest book to date, marred by its excessive reliance on bold assertion and rhetorical flourish, where the issues so clearly demand careful reflection and painstaking analysis, based on the best evidence available. Attractive precisely because it is simplistic, Dawkins demands the eradication of religion. Only when it is eliminated can the human race rest secure! Get rid of religion, and the world will be a better place. It is a familiar theme, if stated with greater fervour than before.
 
But is it right? What happens if a society rejects the idea of God? The evidence suggests that it transcendentalizes alternatives – such as the ideals of liberty or equality. These now become quasi-divine authorities, which none are permitted to challenge. Perhaps the most familiar example of this dates from the French Revolution, at a time when traditional notions of God were discarded as obsolete, and replaced by transcendentalized human values. Madame Rolande was brought to the guillotine to face execution on trumped-up charges in 1792. As she prepared to die, she bowed mockingly towards the statue of liberty in the Place de la Révolution, and uttered the words for which she is remembered: “liberty, what crimes are committed in your name.” All ideals – divine, transcendent, human, or invented – are capable of being abused. That’s just the way human nature is. And knowing this, we need to work out what to do about it, rather than lashing out uncritically at religion.
 
Suppose Dawkins were to have his way, and that religion were to be eradicated. Would that end the divisions within humanity? Certainly not. Such divisions are ultimately social constructs, which reflect the fundamental sociological need for communities to self-define, and identify those who are “in” and those who are “out”; those who are “friends”, and those who are “foes”. The importance of “binary opposition” in shaping perceptions of identity has been highlighted in recent years, not least on account of the major debate between different schools of critical thought over whether such “oppositions” determine and shape human thought, or are the outcome of human thought.  A series of significant “binary oppositions” are held to have shaped western thought – such as “male-female” and “white-black”. This binary opposition leads to the construction of the category of “the other” – the devalued half of a binary opposition, when applied to groups of people. Group identity is often fostered by defining “the other” – as, for example, in Nazi Germany, with its opposition “Aryan-Jew”. At times, this binary opposition is defined in religious terms – as in “Catholic-Protestant”, or “believer-infidel”.


Let’s look at one of these, which I experienced at first hand when growing up in during the 1960s. Primarily for sociological reasons, the binary opposition “Catholic-Protestant” came to be perceived as normative. Each side saw its opponent as “the other”, a perception that was relentlessly reinforced by novelists and other shapers of public opinion. Media reporting of the social unrest in from 1970 to about 1995 reinforced the plausibility of this judgement. Yet this is a historically conditioned oppositionalism, shaped and determined by complex social forces. It is not a specifically religious phenomenon. Religion was merely the social demarcator that dominated in this situation. In others, the demarcators would have to do with ethnic or cultural origins, language, gender, age, social class, sexual orientation, wealth, tribal allegiance, ethical values, or political views.

Dawkins’ simplistic assertion that the elimination of religion would lead to the ending of violence, social tension, or discrimination is thus sociologically naïve. It fails to take account of the way in which human beings create values and norms, and make sense of their identity and their surroundings. If religion were to cease to exist, other social demarcators would emerge as decisive, becoming transcendentalized as necessary in response to the situation. Dawkins has no interest in sociology, as might be expected. Yet the study of how individuals and societies function casts serious doubt on one of the most fundamental assertions of Dawkins’ analysis.
 
The question of the future role of religion in is far too important to leave to the fanatics, or to atheist fundamentalists. There is a real need to deal with the ultimate causes of social division and exclusion. Religion’s in there, along with a myriad of other factors. Yet, it can cause problems. But it also has the capacity to transform, creating a deep sense of personal identity and value, and bringing social cohesion. Let’s skip the rhetoric, and cut to the reality. It’s much less simple – but it might actually help us address the real social issue that we face in modern Britian.


Alister E. McGrath is Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University. A former atheist himself, he has written extensively on atheism, particularly the ideas of Richard Dawkins, and their foundations in modern science. His book "The Dawkins Delusion" will be published by SPCK in February 2007.


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The debate


alanmann 3 Nov

Dawkins is right of course, religion has in many ways been a disaster for our world.

But then McGrath is also right, remove religion and human beings will simply replace it with something else, and that something else will contain the same distortions and divisions that religion so often does.

Perhaps Madame Rolande should have simply stated, ‘Humanity, what crimes are committed in your name.’

For sure, McGrath rightly states in defence of Religion that it has, ‘the capacity to transform, creating a deep sense of personal identity and value, and bringing social cohesion,’ but so do many other things that aren’t based on the belief in a god or gods. In the same way that other social constructs are tainted by human failings, so non-religious social constructs can also be furnished with the capacity for good that human beings so often display.

Speaking as one who is wedded to Christianity, and despite having little time for Dawkin’s unbalanced tirade, it’s hard to see how McGrath has made a case for religion, other than to say that it has as much right to exist as any other human construct, for while all sorts of evils are done in its name, it can be a force for good.

Benjhutton 3 Nov

Its my understanding that research has shown religion to be an advantage for those who practice it, in both health and happiness. This on its own is a reasonable argument for us to pursue some kind of religion. I feel sorry for Dawkins and his atheistic life - he looks forward to nothing but becoming another part of the food chain. Presumably it would be ok for a brave extremist from some religion or another to push him off a cliff because, after all, it would just be survival of the fittest.

Tom 5 Nov

Dawkins seems to think that religion, by definition, is one of the world's great evils, but, like ideology, religion in and of itself is neither good nor bad. The morality of a particular religion or ideology (including Dawkins' own) depends on the content of it. Of course, religion can cause conflict in the world, but it's the religions of Communism and Fascism that have been the most bloody in human history. Under Stalin's reign in the Soviet Union they shot, tortured, beat or froze to death at least 40 million of its people; Hitler's Nazi rule in Germany was responsible for the deaths of 12 million civilians, half of them Jews; Mao Tse Tung's had 2 million 'class enemies' shot, another 2 million where executed during the 'Cultural Revolution' 1 million Tibetans and Turkestani Muslims were 'liquidated' and at least 30 million were deliberately starved to death; Pol Pot and his notorious Khmer Rouge were responsible for killing at least 1 million 'class enemies' in the Cambodian Killing Fields. Common to all these evil personalities and ideologies was militant atheism.

sarahpickwick 5 Nov

Dawkins book, an attack on religion with Christianity in particular being singled out, is against the background of the fact that the great majority of people in the world believe there is a God. Supposedly science and the enlightenment should have done away with our belief in God but yet it remains. Therefore I believe Dawkins is writing from a position of fear, frustration, and weakness, because his atheistic views are not being embraced by the world around him. If belief in God was something that was fading out, why would you bother to write a 400 page book hoping that, in his words, "religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down"?

Since Dawkin's attack is particularly against Christianity, and he sees religion as a source of all the ills of the world, we therefore need to examine what Christ said about violence. He said, far from killing the infidel, we are to love our neighbours, pray for them and do good to them. Dawkins claims that religion is dangerous because people take on beliefs and then are ready to fight for them. Have atrocities been carried out in the name of Christianity? Yes no doubt but not truly in the name of Christ and what he taught.

We are to improve the lives of others around us if we are Christians. Proof that this is the case can be seen from followers of Christianity, for example in the work of people like Lord Shaftsbury, who was responsible for a number of social and workplace reforms, William Wilberforce who brought about the abolition of slavery and Florence Nightingale who introduced modern day nursing.


gareth 6 Nov

I agree with Dawkins. The God Delusion is a great book. God is an imaginary friend but a dangerous one too. The eradication of religion would bring an end to violence. God is too often used to legitimate evil. During the First World War, the German theologian Alfred Uckley said: "God is the God of the Germans. Our battles are God's battles. Our cause is a sacred, a wholly sacred matter. We are God's chosen among the nations. That our prayers for victory will be heard is entirely to be expected, according to the religious and moral order of the world." Need I say anymore?

The Hammer 7 Nov

Gareth has rightly stated that 'God' has been used to legitmate great violence and attrocities. We should get rid of all things which have been used for evil! The only problem is that leaves nothing. People have used everything for evil. Religion, politics, power, money, technology, art, to name but a few. Do we get rid of all these things? What is clear, then, is that it is not the belief in God that is evil, it is people. The postmodern, 'tolerant' world has a funny idea that we're all good people. We're not! I'm a teacher and I can tell you that if you don't teach children to do good they naturally become selfish and self-absorbed. You don't have to teach children to be bad - they naturally do it. As a teacher you spend a huge proportion of your time teaching children how to be good.

In regards to Alfred Uckley's claim that 'God' was God of the Germans, then you must ask which god is he talking about? People accepted what he said because of selfish desires. The Bible says 'God' is God of the world and loves everyone without partiality (Romans 2:11). In fact, the Bible says God will punish most severly those who lead others away from trusting him (matthew 18:6-7). Gareth, I hear what you are saying, but rest assured, no-one who has committed evil in God's name will get away with it.

chloereeves 7 Nov

I agree with the sentiment that it is not just religion that is a root of some of the world's problems - Religion is just the scapegoat of modern times. Humans have an innate desire to defend themselves and this 'survival of the fittest' attitude extends beyond physical preservation to the empassioned defence of beliefs and ideas. The social problems that people like Dawkins blame religion for are actually the product of man's inability to reign in this passion and discern when the preservation of personal beliefs begins to threaten society (whether localised or on a wider scale). The passion that religion rouses unfortunately sometimes leads to violence and other socially-detrimental behaviour. I imagine here that people will question whether anything other than religion could rouse such a level of passion. Look at football - I genuinely don't mean to be flippant; I think it's a good example of something man can feel so passionate about they lose the ability to distinguish when the preservation of personal beliefs crosses over into the socially-destructive. Like I said, I agree with the sentiment that if there were no religion, something else would fill the void. It's part of human nature.

Automath 7 Nov

"Dawkins’ simplistic assertion that the elimination of religion would lead to the ending of violence, social tension, or discrimination is thus sociologically naïve."

Except that, Dawkins has quite openly said quite the opposite of what you claim he asserts. And I think any rational being would agree with the idea being naïve. Just as naïve in fact as the assertion that religion will cure all the worlds ills.

I'm not sure what is meant by Dawkins being a militant fundamentalist atheist. Is this some kind of 'in' group coding for 'we don't like him'?

"It’s much less simple – but it might actually help us address the real social issue that we face in modern Britian."

I notice you are not as confident regarding ones own assertions. The real social issue should be addressed by the elected politicians; however I suspect with them distancing themselves from this duty, then it will no doubt fall at the door of the religious institutions as they have traditionally fulfilled this role.

Apart from the few ad hominin attacks on Dawkins and his beliefs, there is little in this article that actually counters any of Dawkins arguments.




NBeale 7 Nov

I really look forward to a proper debate between McGrath and Dawkins. "The God Delusion" has been rightly criticised by philosophers as heavily simplistic, and the cartoon in Nature of Dawkins as a sandwich-board man in spot on. If these are the best arguments Atheism can produce then it is indeed in its twilight. They used to have Bertrand Russell - now the best they can produce is Dawkins with his second class degree and third rate arguments.

Grasshopper 7 Nov

Automath, I am not sure that Christianity ever makes the claim that its followers will ultimately cure the world's ills. Ultimately that is not for them to do but for God to do.
Christianity you see is not a metaphysical idea such as liberty as McGrath points out.

Christianity make the claim that Christians should be the ones most involved in working towards the eradication of these ills. This can and should happen from Parliament, but must also happen outside of the political sphere; whether as explicit religious work or as a side effect of Christian compassion. Again, this does not necessarily mean those that are on the receiving end of the compassion need to become Christians, but they are often surprised at anybody helping them. The experience of receiving help can be quite shocking, especially if the help given is not of the paternalistic type.

The responsibility for each other as Human beings --Christian or Anti-theist-- comes from I would hope a fundamental human understanding of the need to rid the world of ills. It's seems we all agree that something is not quite right with the world. However, your claim that injustice must be eradicated by elected politicians implies a push away from your own responsibility to your fellow human.

Greywizard 7 Nov

Professor McGrath's piece, is misleading, simplistic, and unnecessarily uncritical.

First, does Dawkins 'demand the eradication of religion'? No, he does not. He wants to raise the consciousness of those who have deep doubts about religious faith, and no doubt he thinks that a world without religion would be a better world, but to my knowledge he does not demand the eradication of religion. That would be absurd, given the entrenched position that religion holds in most societies and cultures, as Professor McGrath well knows. So, this is simply nonsense.

Dawkins does, however, think that the world would be a better place without religion, and though there is doubtless a measure of naiveté in that belief, ther is also a great deal of sound wisdom. Religion has been a scourge, and it would be extremely naive of Professor McGrath to deny this. He may say, of course, that religion brings 'a deep sense of personal identity and value,' but to say, without comment, that it also brings 'social cohesion' is really going too far. It may bring social cohesion where all people are members of the same religious group, but it is very doubtful if Professor McGrath can point to a society where a diversity of religions has brought social cohesion. That's a challenge he might like to meet. I don't know about modern Britain, but I suppose it's much like other 'Western' countries, where increasingly religion is becoming a social problem rather than a source of cohesion and unity.

The other really astonishing point that Professor McGrath makes is that 'if religion were to cease to exist, other social demarcators would emerge as decisive, becoming transcendentalised as necessary in response to the situation.' That's an incredibly depressing assessment of the possibilities of human community, but I wonder if Professor McGrath has any scientific evidence on which to base this assumption.

One last remark. I cannot, in all fairness, see that Professor McGrath has addressed himself to Professor Dawkins' book. There is much generalised talk of his being uncritical and simplistic, but no demonstration. These are empty criticisms, and do not amount to a fair response to Professor Dawkins' work. I'm sorry to say that this is an incredibly uncritical and misleading piece of work, almost as misleading as his inaptly named, 'The Twilight of Atheism.' And, if he likes, I will give him chapter and verse for that closing remark.

kevin in the US 7 Nov

Religion may or may have benefits, and eliminating it may or may not be good for us.

But there simply is no question of the existence of God. In the straightforward way that we can be reasonably certain that the Earth is not flat, that life arose more than just a few thousand years ago (as the creationist say), and that there is no Santa Claus, we know that there is no God. Wanting really badly for God to exist does not constitute either an argument for God nor a reason for respect of faith. On purely intellectual grounds, religion is distasteful.

mattvaller 7 Nov

The problem of 'God' is a problem of language. To speak of God in relation to any subject has the effect of legitimising, or illegitimising, it, often overriding sensible rationality. This is a problem that most religious communities have failed to acknowledge or address. And to bend McGrath's French analogy, it is a problem more particular to God-talk than to any other doctrinal language; the state can chop your head off, but God can torment you forever.

There is no doubt that in many sectors of society religions of all flavours are respected for their contribution to community life. But for God to become an acceptable word to sceptics the moral power associated with his language needs to be dethroned.

This should not scare the Christian community; our gospel is one that critiques dominatory power, advocating the power of humble service instead. Our language should follow suit, undermining notions of God in 'control' or as hard-nosed moral 'judge'. Hell should be rejected as a manipulatory motivator and monopoly on ethical discourse should be redundant.

If the 'God'-language of the Christian community were to face the subversive power of its message the problems of unwarranted legitimisation would be seriously reduced.

Popiel 7 Nov

It is extraordinary that Dawkins can take the moral high ground on the Holocaust. The Holocaust was carried out by logical Darwinists, applying the principle of 'survival of the fittest' to races. Of course it was a monstrous abuse of Darwin's ideas, but then so is terrorism an abuse of the God idea. We can prove from every possible religious principle that terrorism is a blasphemy, but how can Dawkins actually prove that the eugenic theories of the Nazis were not implicit in Darwinism? If we want to know what an actively atheist state looks like we can look at China. Does Dawkins really believe that the Chinese state in its persecution of religious movements is right and the Dalai Lama an evil fanatic, worthy of repression? On his basic principles he must do. In the end, let even an atheist look at the two basic ideas and choose which, in its purest form, would be the best guide for societies: 'survival of the fittest' or 'love thy neighbour'. No contest I think.

Phil 7 Nov

I'm sorry Popiel but your reference to Dawkins and the holocaust is extremely partial. The Holocaust clearly originated in Christian anti-semitism - it was the most extreme manifestation of this anti-semitism. The Christian blood libel and centuries of officially sanctioned hatred and persecution of Jewish people by the church and its followers, led to the Holocaust. Hitler himself was brought up as a catholic anti-semite and carried this hatred into his later life. Dawkins is surely right if he points the finger at religion and Christianity as having significant responsibility for the holocaust. Christians and the church believed themselves to be far superior and "the fittest" long before Darwin came along, However, as you correctly point out, horrendous acts have been carried out by non-religious states. Religion is certainly not responsible for all that is bad in the world. Clearly it is love and care for the well-being of others which is of the greatest importance. You say there is a choice between "survival of the fittest" or "love thy neighbour". Obviously this is a false choice, but unfortunately the second choice has only rarely been the church's choice (perhaps love them as long as they're not homosexual, Jewish, from a different country etc.). Let's go for "Love your neighbours" (all of them), but that's a choice for Humanists, atheists and the religious, not exclusively the religious.

jdavis 8 Nov

I attended a lecture by Prof. Dawkins at the Philadelphia Free Library, Nov. 2. In his readings (from 'The God Delusion') and in the Q&A session he was quite clear what he is aiming for: the elimination of religion as a whole, the Christian religion in particular, and 'faith' in general. He considers the U.S. ripe for atheism. Apparently his audience agreed with him - they received him with much enthusiasm and hilarity at some of his more outrageous remarks.

Most of Dawkins' criticisms were reserved for 'orthodox' Christian doctrine, but especially the idea of the Trinity. He was rather obsessed with this point. On other topics, he quoted several (OT) Scriptures prior to ridiculing their contents. Sensible and logical alternative explanations for these are readily available in the vast body of Christian literature, and I question the quality of his research efforts. He is not at his best on Biblical ground. Unfortunately, most of his hearers don't know that.

Grasshopper 8 Nov

If it is true what you said Jdavis, it is somewhat sad that Dawkins perception of the Trinity is so full of dismissive fervent anger. The teachings of the Trinity are those that allow for unity in diversity (and diversity in unity) expressed best to human understanding in the example of a trusting sexual relationship; or that of a family life that is not guilt ridden, oppressive and manipulatory. There is perfect difference expected among God, and this difference is not "tolerated" but is a central part of the being of God. Yet this difference has self imposed boundaries, to us perhaps a truly radical example of freedom. God is free to be constrained by self imposed boundaries within self. If we view our nature as being based in the nature of God, or if you are anti-theist and strive for a nature that you have made up, we must restrict our personal dominance over others, we must strive to fit within our own breaches. I am often surprised at how hard it is to actually do this, let alone convince others that this is the type of true freedom deeply needed by human kind.

Greywizard 8 Nov

Grasshopper. What is this nonsense -- as though you can speak with any authority about the internal structure of God! This is one of the deepest problems of theology, that people think they can have knowledge of something which is, intrinsically, beyond knowing. A little knowledge may be a dangerous thing, as Pope said, but imagined knowledge is even more dangerous. Which is precisely Professor Dawkins' point, whatever you may say about the quality of his arguments.

neeeeil 8 Nov

I have been blogging this argument at Richard Dawkins blog @ the Huffington Post - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-dawkins/why-there-almost-certainl_b_32164.html and been feeling pretty lonely there on the side of religion. It is a pretty mind consuming argument and I was happy to see so many here are on the court with me. Feel free to jump in there, he actually takes part in that one when he feels the urge. Sorry I made a MISS-POST to begin with, I hit the "ADD COMMENT" button prior to having any commentary generated.

Grasshopper 8 Nov

I do not make any claims about the internal structures of God other than the claims made by God in an understandable fashion to humans (God created human kind in his own image; in the image of God he created human kind, male and female he created them Gen1:27). If I was not capable of knowing anything about God --and I do not make the claim that I know God and his character absolutely-- it would hardly be worth trying to understand anything about anything, would it, unless of course you are a complete materialist. It would be rather hard to understand or make claims on Love, Liberty, Freedom or the rich enjoyment one has at reading a good book. The fundamental disagreements we may have on the epistemic roots of our claims aside, surely even your grey-mystical-magical-self recognizes that the boundaries between you and your lover (if you have that capability) are somewhat mysterious but fathomable. Hence my point on the problem of boundaries and self restraint, coupled with Freedom, a point I believe, you may have mist. A point Dawkins also misses when he denounces the idea of the Trinity.

Greywizard 8 Nov

Grasshopper. Thanks for the response. However, please tell me where you find these claims: 'the claims made by God in an understandable fashion to humans.' But you must do it in a non-question-begging way. Second point. Why would it not be worth while trying to understand anything, given our inability to know anything about God? Dawkins seems to think it is. What reason do you have for thinking otherwise? You add the qualification -- 'unless you are a complete materialist' -- but that is just language on holiday. I think love and liberty (why the caps?) are valuable, and I experience much enjoyment from reading a good book, but what has God to do with it? Third point. What does it mean to say that the boundaries between me and another person are 'mysterious but fathomable'? Final point (comments don't allow paragraphs on this blog). Not only did I miss your point 'on the problem of boundaries and self restraint,' I don't understand it. And I certainly don't know what its got to do with the Trinity. Mathematically speaking, the idea of the Trinity is a contradiction -- always was. Besides, it attempts to say the unsayable. 'Wovon man nicht sprechan kann, darüber muss man schweigen.' (Wittgenstein)

Tom 8 Nov

Greywizard. Can I ask you a question? Why do you think love and liberty are valuable? On what do you base or determine 'value'? On what basis are 'love' and 'liberty' anymore valuable than, say, 'selfishness' and 'oppression'? I don't like selfishness and oppression because they don't feel nice, but I'm not sure if I can talk in moral terms about these things unless I have something to base my morality on. The problem is I don't. Do you? Can we talk about morality without talk of an absolute moral being?

Popiel 8 Nov

Phil. I am not unaware of the history of Christian anti-Semitism. It is well-documented by historians and personally as my father suffered (and gave) many a bloody nose in the 1930's defending Polish Jews from attacks by the Polish Catholic nationalist ND party. But all these manifestations of Jew-hatred never sank to the horror of a final solution. That was the unique privilige of the Nazis who grafted pseudo-scientific theories derived from various followers of Darwin onto currents of anti-Semitism already there to raise the horror exponentially. It was the 'scientific' brutality of both the theory and practice of the Nazis that pushed their murderous campaign to the level of the single greatest crime against humanity. Since Jewish genes were inferior mixing them with Aryan genes would deprive the race of its manifest superiority. Therefore, since survival and power was all that mattered, the inferior races had to go. In the last analysis the most anti-Semitic Christian would be forced to concede that Jesus was a Jew, but for a 'scientific' racist like Hitler this meant nothing because he was not in any sense a Christian.

My point is simply that the misapplication of Darwinism is even more damaging than the misapplication of religion. The most reprehensible manifestation of Christian intolerance, the Spanish Inquistion, killed some thousands. The majority of its victims had the opportunity to recant during a trial which however unjust was at least a legal process based on evidence, whereas no one labelled a Jew by the Nazis had that chance. But the victims of atheistical regimes like the Chinese and Russian communists, Pol Pot, Choibolsan the Mongolian dictator who slaughtered thousands of Buddhist monks, as well as Hitler are numbered in the tens of millions. That is not any apology for the Inquistion just a historical proof that science can be an excuse far more evil than religion.

Grasshopper 8 Nov

GrayWizard, I find them in the bible. I gave you chapter and verse and then stated that we may differ on our epistemology but that we can agree (hopefully) that there are metaphysical (non-material), un-provable concepts (Love, Liberty) that you and I and Dawkins claim to know something about even though we may not know everything about them. Hence, I can know God, some aspects of Gods character and yet not know everything about God. It follows then that if part of God is in fact knowable, I can make claims about the relationship we share in Gods nature, which is Trinitarian, in that our identity stems from it. So, working backwards here, the value you lay in liberty and love, I believe stems from a proper anthropology based on science and a well developed understanding of Gods Trinitarian character.

I would also question your application of mathematics as I do believe 100% plus a 100% and a 100% does indeed make a 100%, correct? I am a bit rusty on the maths side of things.

jdavis 8 Nov

The broad argument that society would be better off without 'religion' is, at its root, a denigration of Christianity in particular. The same Christianity which gave the impulse to many beneficial social and charitable movements over the centuries; the Christianity which has recognised its own shortcomings and has endeavoured at key points in its history to fix them. It's cavalier to attack Christian behaviour or its doctrines on a shallow understanding of its history and superficial reading of its main text (the Bible). To postulate that a God-less society is the answer to the world's problems requires a higher sort of faith in the virtue of human nature than even a devout believer could summon up. A search for the origin of life -- for matter itself -- will bring everyone -- believer and atheist -- to the same question: How did what is, come to be? From this starting point the Christian faith is quite logical. Apparently it is the elaboration of that faith which is attacked by Prof. Dawkins and others. Dawkins says life came about by 'luck' (the anthropic principle). That's not much to hang one's philosophy on, much less to be certain of.

Greywizard 8 Nov

Tom, I'll answer you and Grasshopper in one short note. First of all, what makes you think that religions have an absolute basis for morality? The Bible gives disquietingly diverse answers to practically any question you put to it. And, besides, why not the Qur'an? Or the Upanishads? What gives priority to the Bible, if we're talking about God's will? Secondly, it seems to me immoral to base one's morality upon commands -- of a god or anyone else. So, absolute moral beings are no more help to real morality -- where we take responsibility for our decisions -- than anything else. In fact, a completely objective, absolute morality would be imprisoning. One of the goods of being human, surely, is our autonomy, our ability to make decisions and to take responsibility. Time to let go the leading strings. Thirdly, as for knowing God, I'm not sure what Grasshopper means by 'metaphysical (non-material_ un-provable concepts'. Concepts are, tautologously, immaterial. What else could they be? (Unless you want to adopt a Platonic world of Ideas or Forms.) The question is about their instantiations. Love and liberty I can find instantiated in personal and political relationships -- so, not unprovable at all. But God is a different thing altogether, and the claim to know God, and to be able to be able (somehow) to peer into the very being of God is, I think, from the Christian point of view, probably a kind of blasphemy -- even though trinitarian theology has claimed to find in creation, incarnation and redemption a revelation of God's very being, a claim disputed, I might point out, by Judaism and Islam. As to mathematics. I'm no mathematician, but I don't know what it means to add 100% three times. That's a category mistake, I suspect. I can add 1+1+1 and get 3. But 100% apples, 100% oranges and 100% mangoes adds up to what? Lastly, this discussion is supposed to be about Prof. McGrath's response to Prof. Dawkins' recent book, which, I believe, not only misrepresents Dawkins, but does not respond to him in a meaningful way. Dawkins may have had some fun at a lecture about the Trinity, which, I think, pose some serious problems for theology (see GWH Lampe's 1976 Bampton Lectures, "God as Spirit," where a Christian theologian claims, with some justice, that everything that can be said by means of trinitarian language can be more simply and less contradictorily said in the language of Spirit). But the more serious problem is, as Dawkins points out, is all this language (of theology) about something or not?
jdavis doesn't think that luck is much to hang your philosophy on. I think it's pretty good really. Why not?

humanbydesign 8 Nov

To consider the abuses of religion to be evidence that there is no such thing as God is as fatuous as to consider the divorce statistics to be evidence that there is no such thing as love.

jdavis 8 Nov

The need for morality, absolute or not, appears to be at least the one thing that proponents of faith or proponents of atheism agree on. The basis of that morality for the non-believer is civic order, a mechanism to impart coherence and courtesy to society. For the Christian, it is an expression of virtue, or God-likeness. One may argue that the outward net result is the same. But perhaps not. Civic morality flows from inner, private morality. It is at this nexus that the question must be analysed. To the query, why should one be moral? the Christian answers that it is, at root, a duty, because it is an absolute command from God (expressed through the Christian's text, the Bible). Does this deny the Christian full liberty or, autonomy? Yes, to the extent that neither the Christian -- nor anyone else, for that matter -- has the 'right' to do whatever he or she chooses. Civic order requires a degree of conformity on the part of the individual in order to support stability (predictability) of the social model. Those who seriously flout the rules -- criminals -- are censured by society. On what basis? That it's 'wrong' or, alternatively, 'inconvenient'? So, the private morality of the Christian is -- at least, ought to be -- derived from an adherence to the principle of morality, quite apart from his or her preference or external regulations. Viewed this way, the Christian faith encourages private self-rebuke when oneself violates the rules, whether it's stealing or speeding. This very intimate regulation of self is consistent with a faith that voluntarily assumes such restraints. As to my report of Prof. Dawkins's attack on the Trinity (cited by Greywizard), it wasn't my intention to divert the debate; rather to point out that when Dawkins homes in on the niceties of theology, he is taking aim at an easy target. Whether one accepts the Trinity or not (not all Christians do), it is the idea of a single Creator which is under assault. Coming back to the anthropic principle, Prof. Dawkins has it both ways: We came about by happenstance, but from then on the process of natural selection, obeying some inexplicable drive (law?) to 'improve' and 'adapt', took over. The only 'proof' offered for this is the fact that things are the way they are -- exactly the Christian position, but to a different conclusion. One might wonder why Evolution and Natural Selection had not long ago obliterated in its product (us) any notion that we might have been created. Since it did not, we Christians might be forgiven for our fallacious imaginings. Richard Dawkins is not so forgiving of our stupidity!

Nicholas 8 Nov

Dawkins does not consider the abuses of religion to be direct evidence that there is no god. He points out many instances when people have done vile things which they claimed were justified by their god's word. This strongly suggests that these gods were invented by humans to reinforce their own prejudices (against Midianites, Gentiles, Jews, non-Muslims, homosexuals, women, women who don't cover their hair, women who speak in church, etc etc.) Moreover, the version of YHWH invented by Paul is a particuarly immoral god, who wouldn't forgive human frailty without a blood sacrifice, and thought it right to impregnate a young girl in order to beget a suitable sacrifice. (But, according to Rowan Williams in the extended version of his interview with John Humphrys, that was OK, because Mary consented. As if.) Dawkins rightly concludes that gods like that are (inept) human inventions. He does not claim that it follows that no god at all exists.

Nicholas 8 Nov

Dawkins doesn't have it both ways about the anthropic principle. He admits that science has not yet got an explanation for the apparent fine-tuning of physics so that carbon and water exist, and life is possible. He points out that "God did it" isn't an explanation either. Once life exists on this planet, natural selection isn't an inexplicable "drive" to adapt, still less to "improve". It's just the inevitable fact that life-forms that are better adapted than their cousins to live long enough to reproduce in a given ecological niche will pass on their genes to their babies/seedlings/etc, and life-forms that die before they reproduce will not pass on their genes. If (which seems unlikely) belief in a Grand Magician Creator is genetically coded, and if (which seems unlikely) it makes you less likely to live long enough to breed, it will indeed become less common.

Nicholas 8 Nov

I agree with Greywizard. We cannnot talk about an absolute moral being. If a supposed such being can give reasons for its alleged moral precepts, then we should have been able to work out those reasons for ourselves. If it cannot give reasons, then the alleged moral precepts are its arbitrary whims. It could change its "mind" tomorrow about what is moral. Its whims deserve our question, and its tyranny deserves our defiance.

Greywizard 9 Nov

Just a short response to jdavis, who wrote: "We came about by happenstance, but from then on the process of natural selection, obeying some inexplicable drive (law?) to 'improve' and 'adapt', took over." This is a misunderstanding of Darwin's idea. There is nothing 'happenstance' about natural selection, nor is there really any sense of progress or improvement, nor is there any inexplicable drive. There is, first of all, reproduction with variation. Second, there is an excess of reproduction over the supportive capacity of the environment. Third, there is the survival and reproduction of those best adapted to the environment, and so a preservation of the adaptive features. Fourth, there are byproducts of this process, both biologically and culturally, that may not be particularly adaptive or non-adaptive, but have survivability. Religion, as Dawkins points out, may be one of these byproducts. Most scientific theories of religion place religion in this category, as byproducts of otherwise adaptive processes. Stewart Guthrie, for instance, in his book "Faces in the Clouds," explains why anthropomorphising features of the natural world is adaptive, and how this may in time have tended to give rise to belief in supernatural personal being(s). Once we are aware of this tendency, however, it makes very little sense to continue imagining that it points us towards reality. This does not mean, let me hasten to add, that it makes sense to extend Darwin's ideas, as the Nazis and others did, into ideas of superior and inferior races, etc. There is no basis for these ideas. Natural selection is an entirely algorithmic process, and cannot be transformed into social policy. Indeed, Dawkins has made the point in several places that, capable as we are (as the outcome of natural selection) of making moral choices, human beings have a moral responsibility to moderate the unthinking indifference of natural processes. As he says in "A Devil's Chaplain," 'at the same time as I support Darwinism as a scientist [because, no doubt, that's simply the way things are], I am a passionate anti-Darwinian when it comes to politics and how we should conduct our human affairs." And then, a moment later, he quotes from another book of his: 'We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.' (pp. 10-11)

robinphillips 9 Nov

Some of you might be interested in reading my review of The God Delusion at

http://robinphillips.blogspot.com/2006/11/review-of-god-delusion.html

jdavis 9 Nov

On Greywizard's lucid defence of the evolutionary process, it is nonetheless implied that there is an 'upward' tendency, culminating in man. This presupposes some regulating mechanism, call it what you will. ** From a scientific point of view there is no explanation for the origin of matter or the origin of life. The discussion on the evolutionary progress of life proceeds on the unalterable recognition that the universe is a fact and we are in it. The interface being Nothingness and Something is not explainable by logic. All of us, non-believers and believers alike, are stymied by this conundrum. Tentativness, not brash confidence, is appropriate when confronting this question, essentially the God question. 'Religion' is a consequence of the initial inquiry; to relegate it to one of the 'survivable' traits is to denigrate it. The Bible text addresses the problems of the human condition and the natural order, and is frequently critical of its own narrative characters. To trot out the worn allusions to Abraham and Isaac, 'blood' sacrifices, and the rest, which Prof. Dawkins and others do, betrays a lack of knowledge and understanding of the Christian position.

Greywizard 9 Nov

Not so, jdavis. No 'upward' tendency is implied, and rerunning the natural selection algorithm would not necessarily culminate in us at all. We are, as you say, a brute fact. That does not mean, however, that we should accept origins as an inexplicable mystery, for science has made some strides in answering some of these questions of origin. Not completely, by any means, but very substantially. Nor is this 'essentially the God question' as you suggest. A personal designing intelligence is not the only possible answer to questions of origin. Nor is it obvious that ''religion' is a consequence of the initial inquiry,' rather than a byproduct of the selection process. This has to be demonstrated, and to my knowledge no one has yet done so, so denigration or not, it may nevertheless be true. Lastly, the biblical text may address problems of the human condition, as you say, and, indeed, the Old Testament is sometimes more critical of itself than Christians have traditionally been. One of the things that the New Testament does, unfortunately, is to remove that critical layer for a kind of either/or certainty, as you can see in John's gospel, or in Paul's distinction between the foolishness of the gospel and wisdom. And remember, please, that when you are talking about the 'knowledge and understanding of the Christian position' you are talking about such a variety of inconsistent points of view that it is almost impossible to pin down. For some, God is a rather nebulous ground of being; for others, God is a very human-like (not say man-like) being with all the faults and foibles that Dawkins so graphically describes.

Greywizard 9 Nov

Sorry robinphillips, I don't think your review does it, really. There are many places where I would want to raise a lot of questions, but it occurred to me, as I scanned your page, that anyone who links N.T. Wright couldn't be all good! However, a few comments. First of all, Dawkins' argument for the probable non-existence of God is perhaps the most original in the entire book, and deserves a bit more critical response than you've given it. Richard Swinburne, in his arguments for the existence of God, argues that the God-hypothesis provides a simple explanation for the existence of the universe. Dawkins' response is twofold. 1. The God-hypothesis is not simple. Anything that could create (ab initio) the complexities we see around us would have to be enormously complex. 2. All the complexity we are aware of in the universe, both the physical universe and the life-world here on earth, develops out of simple antecedents, like complex organisms out of originally one-celled forms of life. More is needed in order to counter this argument than the simple dismissal you attempt. Your next point has to do with godless morality. You might take a look at Richard Holloway's book of the same name! Nothing that Prof. Dawkins says leads to your conclusion when you say: 'I always knew there was something wrong with the way Hitler treated the Jews and now I know why.' There is absolutely no basis in Dawkins' book for this silly claim. Another point about morality. Dawkins' claim that Christians do not, in practice, derive their values from scripture, is not ad hominem. It's simply the truth. Look at the disagreements amongst Christians about homosexuality. Some claim to find the scriptural evidence for condemnation weak; others find it decisive. Somewhere, it seems, people are importing their own values to scripture, and reading what they want out of it. Unless you can show -- and I don't think you can do this without begging the question -- that there is one moral perspective in scripture, Dawkins' point stands, I'm afraid. About memes. I don't hold a brief for the idea of memes, although there does seem to be some basis for supposing that some cultural complexes behave in a gene-like way. However, it does not follow from this that natural selection itself has not also led to a methodology (call it reason, if you like) that is self-correcting and apparently intersubjectively verifiable. It is simplistic to suppose, as you do, that thinking about cultural development as analogous to biological evolution, is a matter of shooting oneself in the foot. You're actually going to have to work at refuting Dawkins. Shooting from the hip won't do!

jdavis 10 Nov

Greywizard. I don't suggest that origins are ultimately inexplicable; rather that they cannot now be explained by atheism or the evolutionary process. As a Christian I accept the Biblical statement that the Originator is not Himself created. ** The 'upward' tendency of evolution may not fit with your academic understanding of the process, but my guess is that 9 out of 10 lay evolutionists construe man as a 'higher' development. But your point is well taken. ** My reference to the Christian 'position' would be better stated as the 'faith' position, a viewpoint which carries an element of certainty (as does your own) based on extra-Biblical data, some subjective, some objective. An analysis of Old and New Testament theology alone is not sufficient to corroborate or refute this position. The 'either/or' construct you speak of is a too-easy dismissal of doctrines for which a rationale has been advanced in the Biblical context -- understandable to those who are sympathetic to the arguments. All too often a sensible Biblical argument is badly served by lame exposition, which is then seized on by critics. This no doubt holds for all areas of knowledge in which the range of understanding and expertise varies widely. Again, I guess that most people who accept evolution would be poorly equipped to defend it against even a shoddy Biblical opposition. You shouldn't be surprised that there are inconsistencies and variations in the positions held by Christians -- there is no field that can claim uniformity of understanding by all its adherents. For example: I cannot see that the teaching of hellfire is supported by a careful reading of the Biblical text. (Sorry, but I think Paul's 9 Nov. judgments on Prof. Dawkins are outlandish and near-blasphemous.) My holding this position, and my disbelief in the Trinity doctrine, makes me an outlaw in Christian Fundamentalist circles. But I am no less a believer in the Bible as the revelation of a loving Creator.

henderson 10 Nov

I can imagine a merely material universe that might evolve as Greywizard ably describes to produce the observable patterns of biology.
Those patterns might include a number of sub-entities (our respective brains) engaging in what corresponds to this debate.

But it would all be a matter of mechanics. It is hard to see how it could produce within the system a detached observer (me).

My most fundamental observation is that I think. A strictly material world seems at odds with that observation, so I must reject that model.

Speaking as an observer, if the world is strictly material then my thought processes described above would have been produced by the laws of mechanics. And so would any forthcoming refutation. It would be billiards, but it feels like seeking after truth.

I think.





Nicholas 10 Nov

As far as I recall, in The God Delusion Dawkins does not discuss consciousness. (Others, notably Daniel Dennett, do.) What relevance does the problem, if it is a problem, of consciousness have to the question of whether there is a transcendent being with colossal magical powers? Are cows conscious? Are trees? Is a (so far, hypothetical) computer which claims "I think"? How would we know? How does it elucidate any aspect of the problem to say that humans (or cows) have a "mind"? What verifiable and falsifiable consequences follow from the assertion that humans (but, apparently arbitrarily, not cows) have a "soul"?

henderson 10 Nov

Consciousness and the sense of thinking are relevant to the subjects under discussion for a couple of reasons. First, they are the first and most undeniable evidence available to the scientific observer of how the world is and so have to be explained by any worldview claiming to be comprehensive. Second, the possiblity of rational thought which is capable of moving towards and recognising truth is the agreed foundation of our discussion. The merely material laws by which some seek to explain the world do not apparently account for the primary observations, and seem to undermine the foundations of thought which have produced our descriptions of the laws and on which they depend. The consequence is that, to date, the material laws should be regarded as excellent rules of thumb. Useful models of reality, not the real thing.

cquail 10 Nov

I’m no trained philosopher, as no doubt you’ll be able to tell, from the following, but this forum seems to be open to all!: How does Consciousness relate to the material world? Is our consciousness defined and limited by its experience of the material? Or does our consciousness enable our experience of life to extend beyond the limits of what we can feel, taste, see, hear? Why does our consciousness seem to make us want to feel that we are, somehow, more significant than just the bodies we inhabit and the term of our earthly life? Something in most of us drives us to want to be remembered beyond the grave, to have made a lasting impact, to have lasting significance. The fact that most of us cannot have this, at least not in material terms, beyond passing on our genes in our children, is why faith is so important: it affirms our individual, lasting value. Religion provides an essential balance: it teaches that, yes, as individuals we have meaning, because we were created uniquely individual. But that individuality reaches its best expression, or fulfilment, by being in relationship, with people, and God. We are not usually happy if we cut ourselves off from others. Is it real? Why does God have to part of the equation? If we decide that our experience of life must be limited to what our senses can perceive and what our intellects can measure, we immediately limit the range of what we can experience: the human race’s knowledge and experience is not extensive enough, yet if ever, to embrace all that the universe has to offer, never mind what might exist beyond the universe. God offers us experience beyond the limits of human capacity to express or comprehend; so rationalism will never have the range to embrace it. My young toddler thinks, if he covers his eyes, I can’t see him because he can’t see me. Rationalist materialists can cover their eyes for as long as they like, but God can see them, all the same.

Greywizard 10 Nov

jdavis. [First point.] I guess my question is, having written what you did, why you believe ‘in the Bible as the revelation of a loving Creator.’ I know that, based (as often as not) on upbringing, it is hard not to think of the Bible as revelation. By the same token, Muslims hold the Qur’an to be the word of God in a much more immediate sense than Christians have ever claimed for the Bible, Sikh’s consider the Granth Sahib to be revelation, the Hindus the Gita and the Upanishads, and the Mormons the Book of Mormon. How does the Bible distinguish itself in this company as obviously God’s revelation? [Second pint.] Nor is criticism of Christian claims based simply on lame biblical arguments that are seized on by critics. The Bible itself (and many other ‘holy’ books) contains much that is morally and religious questionable. Surely, the claim that the Bible is revelation (in whatever sense) raises the stakes for everything to be found in it. That is why Dawkins is perfectly right to take the Bible to task for its moral failures and exhortations to violence. The Christian may reply: ‘But I don’t believe apostates should be stoned.’ Of course you don’t. But then the question is: Why then do you believe in biblical revelation, because such exhortations are to be found in the Bible. [Third point.] You say: ‘The 'either/or' construct you speak of is a too-easy dismissal of doctrines for which a rationale has been advanced in the Biblical context -- understandable to those who are sympathetic to the arguments.’ Surely you don’t really mean the last bit – ‘understandable to those who are sympathetic to the arguments.’ I mean, really! If understanding an argument requires sympathy (with its conclusions?), then we really are in trouble. How on earth can communication work at all on this basis? [Fourth point.] You say: ‘You shouldn't be surprised that there are inconsistencies and variations in the positions held by Christians -- there is no field that can claim uniformity of understanding by all its adherents.’ That is true. However, Christians actually contradict each other, and hold those contradicting beliefs to be (in some sense) absolute. Your parting shot about the Trinity is a case in point. You clearly think it dispensable. Others do not. Is there any way to settle this dispute? If there is no room for maneuver in what sense is either position rational?

Greywizard 10 Nov

henderson and cquail, as Nicholas points out, Dawkins does not deal with the question of consciousness. I take it that you think this is a shortcoming of his book, since consciousness is, if it is anything, non-material -- Is this your point? It convinced Descartes too! However, a lot is being done in consciousness studies today (see Dan Dennett, John Searle, Owen Flanagan, Susan Blackmore, and others), and there does not seem to be any reason that complex systems (like brains) should not achieve consciousness. The whole question of AI (artificial intelligence) raises these questions in a very exciting way. Cognitive science and consciousness studies are growing fields, and I'm no expert, but my guess is that consciousness is a part of the natural world, not somehow infused from outside. The question of how consciousness is related to the material world is, as cquail points out, quite a conundrum, but it is slowly giving up its secrets. Whether the answers will preserve our sense of the value of life, or give meaning to individuals, is another issue. However, surely knowing the truth, even if we need to find meaning in different ways than religion provides, is better than fooling ourselves. We certainly don't and cannot know everything. Thus there are doubtless limits to our comprehension; but why should we suppose that 'God offers us experience beyond the limits of human capacity to express or comprehend'? Indeed, does that even make sense?

Colin R 10 Nov

I might almost have a little sympathy for McGrath. Finding valid criticisms of Dawkins book can't be easy. Dawkins has produced an unassailable case for atheism and it must be very uncomfortable reading for theologians. McGrath decides to pick on one point, which Dawkins didn't even make - that if religion were eliminated there would still be other sources of human conflict. No doubt true, but is it not sensible to eliminate one MAJOR SOURCE of conflict especially when it can be so irrational and violent? As a review of a major work by a respected scientist McGrath's comments leave much to be desired. To be honest, it is not even a review - it's just more irrational nonsense almost unrelated to the book in question. Can he provide no coverage of the dozens of other arguments that Dawkins has offered against religion?

Nicholas 10 Nov

Ruth Lindsay: Dawkins deals with your point on pages 87 to 92 of The God Delusion. I wonder if you have read it. Neither he nor I would wish to deny the complete sincerity of your belief that you experience a life-giving etc entity. The trouble is that humans are apt to be convinced of all manner of weird things. Muslims experience Allah as one inexpressible entity, and regard the concept of the Trinity as at best mistaken and at worst blasphemous. The writer or writers of Psalm 82 were convinced that YHWH was one god among many, but with sounder views than the rest about the weak and fatherless. Scientologists are convinced that aliens seeded humans on this planet, and that Ron Hubbard will return to life in clouds of glory (or something).

What evidence do you have for your assertion that some aspect of the Trinity is "intervening"? What do you mean when you assert that some aspect of it is "living"? Plainly Jesus of Nazareth is not alive any ordinary sense. That is not to deny that you may sincerely believe you hear encouragement from him (or whatever). He just isn't alive in the way that you are, or that my apple tree is, or that a friend is who can give you her mobile phone number.

Greywizard 10 Nov

Ruth Lindsay. Nicholas has really said all that I would want to say in response to your remarks. I don't want to deny that people have experiences which are interpreted as experiences of transcendence, even of supernatural beings. That's a given. I'm not sure that there is a very good argument from such experiences to the belief that a transcendent dimension or that such beings exist. Since Muslims have confirming experiences of Allah, Catholics of the Virgin Mary, Hindus of Shiva or Vishnu, and other Christians of the Living Christ or the presence of the Spirit, etc. etc., the chance that any one of them is right is vanishingly small. Of course, the experiences themselves may be very valuable, and perhaps, like Sam Harris ("The End of Faith", "Letter to a Christian Nation"), we may think them worthwhile encouraging in others or inducing in ourselves. Indeed, Buddhists and Jains have long believed that spiritual states are valuable (and, indeed, life-giving) while not accepting theistic interpretations of them. I wish you joy in yours. Colin R. While I agree with you that Dawkins' book presents an able case for atheism, I do not think it is unassailable. But I agree entirely that McGrath has not really addressed himself to the things that Dawkins says. He has in mind, I think, what he thinks atheists must say, and whether he has read the book or not, filters atheistic writings through an apologetic filer, so that everything comes out sounding much the same. You are right. It is not a review, and dishonestly poses as one.

jdavis 10 Nov

Greywizard. To attack the concept of the Trinity or the various creeds of the Christian church is an ineffective way to disprove the existence of God. What Richard Dawkins, or anyone else, thinks of the Trinity, miracles, or the virgin Mary is not germane if the intent is to advance a defence of atheism based on scientific principle. A scientifically based argument against the existence of God of necessity has its limits. And differences in Christian interpretation and dogma cannot be adduced to corroborate the atheistic view. I contend that a more reasonable presentation of God, one supported by the Biblical text -- rather than that presented by creeds accreted over centuries -- would attract less sniping by sceptics and would-be Christians alike and perhaps lead to a more balanced discussion. Feelings are high on both sides of this question and preclude any 'knock-out' argument. ** One's being 'sympathetic' to a conclusion, based on sound inferences, is not in itself tendentious; internal and linked proofs for an existing hypothesis exist in all fields of study. Call the evidence circumstantial if you wish, but the assertion that only non-religious individuals can have a pure, unbiased point of view is fiction.

Automath 10 Nov

NBeale, a debate between the two would be pointless. Which philosophers are you refering to, as like most convenient labels not all philosophers share a common view. To which arguments do you refer, as the only one postulated by McGarth is nothing more than a red herring. Who is this they to which you refer? I assume since you continue to personal attack Dawkins you tend to disagree with his arguments?

Automath 10 Nov

Thanks for taking the time to reply Ruth, it is always useful to see how others wish to define the terms being used and the stance they choose to take.

Greywizard 10 Nov

jdavis. Let's start at the end. In your latest you say that 'being 'sympathetic' to a conclusion, based on sound inferences, is not in itself tendentious.' But that's not what you said before. You spoke, quite clearly, of 'a too-easy dismissal of doctrines for which a rationale has been advanced in the Biblical context -- understandable to those who are sympathetic to the arguments.' Notice the word 'understandable.' The converse of that would also be true, that the arguments would be unintelligible to those not sympathetic to them. That's what I took exception to. Second point. If indeed Christians think they can know something about the internal structure of God, then I think probably those who question the very existence of God would be justified in calling attention to this kind of hubris, as Dawkins does. He calls it the obscurantism of theology, and this seems at least prima facie justified. So, if the atheist wants to call attention to the pretentions of Christian theology, trinitarian ideas are not a bad place to start. Second. I doubt very much whether a presentation of God based solely on the biblical text would be more reasonable than, say, Aquinas' or Anselm's or even Richard Swinburne's or Alvin Plantinga's presentation. In fact, one of the things that even Christians call attention to from time to time is the diversity of perspectives in the biblical text. That may add to its literary richness, but does nothing for its consistency. And remember, please, that scientific principle, besides questions of evidence, confirmation or falisification, must also strive after lucidity and consistency. In order to satisfy the canons of science, others must know exactly what would be the case if what you say is true, and must be able to discern whether or not this is the case. The trouble with most theology is that it is not clear what its claims imply for our experience, nor how one would discern whether or not they are true. That, I think, is precisely why Dawkins addresses himself to such things as trinitarian theology. What difference does it make? How could we confirm or disconfirm what theologians say about it?

Automath 10 Nov

Ah Grasshoper, you have misrepresented my point. It was just another example of a naïve assertion, along the same lines as that of that made by Mcgrath. I suppose if it can work for McGrath you might as well follow suit. I'd take exception to any claims made on my behalf, especially when ended with a judgement made against such a claim. I suspect some of your issues come from seeing humans as being divided between christian and anti-theists. I glad you agree with me that the social issues should be addressed by parliament, from which others can take the work forward; however humans of any belief, faith, etc. would probably be a preferable alternative; as this would help to promote social cohesion. Most of the social issues of the world are caused by human beings not being able to see past dogmatic beliefs, whatever form they may take.

Greywizard 11 Nov

If folks don’t mind, I’d like to go back to Prof. McGrath’s ‘review’ of Dawkins’ book. In that review Prof. McGrath says this: ‘What happens if a society rejects the idea of God? The evidence suggests that it transcendentalizes alternatives – such as the ideals of liberty or equality.’ Now, the question I would like to ask is whether this is true, and, if true, what implications it has. Prof. McGrath offers no evidence, notice for this very big claim. Obviously, he thinks that transcendentalising liberty or equality would be disastrous, although it is not altogether clear what he means by this. Can he mention a case in which ideals of liberty or equality were ‘transcendentalised’ where things turned out badly? My guess is that he couldn’t. Based on what he says in his book “The Twilight of Atheism” I think he probably has the French Revolution in mind, but there were so many other things going on in that political cataclysm, that it is hard to say whether the outcome was due to the transcendentalising of liberty, equality or fraternity, or to other factors. And it is unclear just what role the rejection of the idea of God played in all this. Prof. McGrath may think he knows the answer, but I think he is probably wrong. After all, most of the revolutionaries did not reject the idea of God, a atheism itself was in the ascendent for only a brief period during the revolution. Notice that this is Prof. McGrath’s chief reason for dismissing Dawkins’ case. But notice, too, that, even if what he says were true, it would not follow that God exists. It might only follow that the *idea* of the existence of God is so deeply rooted in many societies that rejecting it would lead to the transcendentalising (does he mean ‘absolutising’) of other values. But this, of course, if true, might only be true for a short period, after which society returns to a semblance of normality, but on other grounds. Indeed, is this not what has happened in the so-called ‘West,’ where secular forms of polities have replaced the old theocracies of the ‘ancien regime,’ and is not secularism better, more peaceful, than when religion had the field all to itself?

Nicholas 11 Nov

Well put, Greywizard. Please could Theos ask Professor McGrath to respond to some of the criticisms that have been made here of his review, so that we can have a well-focussed debate?

jdavis 11 Nov

Greywizard. Obscurantism was not my intended angle of attack. I was attempting to thwart the too-ready assumption that those who hold to the theistic position are in some way mentally obtuse ('foolish idiots' as Prof. Dawkins categorised them in a recent U.S. radio programme). This same doctrinaire argument is held by many Christians against atheists when they aver that their own (Christian) conclusions are transparently logical. But, as with most things in this complicated world, evidence is two-faced, and there is often a sound reason why our opponents take the intellectual stand they do. This dilutes the dogma that either side is entitled to — after all, it's hard to make a case for absolutism when asserting the non-existence of a God whose role it is (as you might see it) to foster absolutism. An element of uncertainty is inherent in such a large question. The Christian cannot claim to 'know' all about God from material evidence; such a claim would contradict the assertion that faith is an essential element. Nonetheless, in the ideal approach, there is a ratiocinative process at work in the Christian philosophy. To the atheist, the bogey appears to be the Biblical text and the inferences usually drawn from it. But even when we laid the text to one side and drew from natural theology, a la Drummond or Chalmers, your ancestors did not like that, either. So, if I said that the quality of compassion demonstrates that God is compassionate, you might counter that plague and death argues He is not. At root, there is a fundamental disrespect of the other's position. Atheism is not a novel position; it has a long tradition. Given the contradictions in the historical religion, the inveterate chaotic and dysfunctional state of the social order, and the observation that this material universe has earmarks of randomness, it's not surprising that atheism is an attractive proposition. But it's still not fully confirmable and you must dose your conclusion with a bit of 'not sure'. An analogue to the 'faith bit', perhaps? I return to my earlier theme: that a correct understanding of the Biblical text answers many so-called contradictions.

Greywizard 11 Nov

jdavis. You miss my point in a whole variety of ways. First of all, whether obscurantism was your intended angle of attack or not, the accusation of obscurantism is hard for theologians to avoid. But that doesn’t mean that theologians are (necessarily, at least) ‘mentally obtuse’ (Dawkins sometimes has a way of overstating his case in polemical situations), for some theologians, like Barth, or Rahner, Schleiermacher or Tillich, have been towering intellects. The question has to do with their subject matter. Take your own point at the end, ‘that a correct uncerstanding of the Biblical text answers many so-called contradictions.’ Put the emphasis on that word ‘correct.’ What makes one understanding of the text correct and the other not? Read David Kelsey’s book, ‘The Uses of Scripture in Recent Theology.” There he points out, after considering a diversity of ways of reading the Bible, that ‘Scripture is *relevant* [I use the stars to indicate italics] to the making of that imaginative judgment [which theologians make in the course of theologising on the biblical text] because it shapes the context in which it is done and provides the range of materials out of which it is made. But scirpture is not *decisive* precisely because the [theological] judgment is imaginative, free, creative.’ (p. 206) And on the same page he writes: ‘But just how a theologian does finally construce and use scripture is decisively determined, not by the texts as texts, nor by the texts as scripture, but by that logically prior imaginative judgment.’ What, then, is correct? Whose opinions shall define the correctness of understanding you applaud? Surely the wild diversity of Christianities indicates clearly that there are fundamental disagreements over what is a correct understanding of scripture. Dawkins’ point, I think, is that there is no way of determining which theological understanding is correct. And if Kelsey is right, and theology is a free, imaginative creation, then does it even make sense to talk about knowledge here at all? Let’s take your point about compassion. ‘If I said,’ you write, ‘that the quality of compassion demonstrates that God is compassionate, you might counter that plague and death argues He is not. At root, there is a fundamental disrespect of the other’s position.’ It’s not that simple. In what way does the quality of compassion *demonstrate* that God is compassionate? My raising that question is not disrespect. It is an attempt to understand what you mean. And if I respond, as you suggest, with questions about the problem of evil -- Dawkins asks the question (in “The Devil’s Chaplain,” p. 160), ‘Is there no catastrophe terrible enough to shake the faith of people ... in God’s goodness and power?’ -- can you not see this, not as disrepsect, but as a genuine question wrung out of me by suffering and pain? And my last point. You write: ‘Given the contradictions in the historical religion, the inveterate chaotic and dysfunctional state of the social order, and the observation that this material universe has earmarks of randomness, it's not surprising that atheism is an attractive proposition.’ Well, do you really think so? McGrath’s point is basically that atheism is, in a sense, really impossible, but merely comes back in other, and more destructive forms. And even if we do not accept that, religions *seem*, at least, to be more attractive to most people most of the time than atheism.

Bluecat 11 Nov

Prof McGrath is using the age old trick of smoke and mirrors: ascribe an easy-to-knock-down claim to your opponent and then proceed to knowck it down, add a bit of intellectualese about "the other", always a favourite, and job done, thank you very much. McGrath ascribes to Dawkins the certal hypothesis "Get rid of religion, and the world will be a better place". "Overly simplistic," he cries. He then rehearses some plausible reasons why this is not true. The reader is left thinking "Ah, Mcgrath is right, Dawkins central hypothesis is far too simplistic, there are cogent arguments for saying that maintainance of religion would be beneficial. I dont believe a word of what that atheist fundementalist says". But wait!! That's all very intreresting and arguable both ways but surely Dawkins' central hypothesis is even more straightforward. Countering it doesnt need flowery language, or long debate. Dawkins' central hypothesis is even more simplistic (and I say that as a good thing not bad). His central hypothesis is "There is no God". Bingo.
Dawkins is saying "Show me a shred of evidence that there is a God." He then undertakes an assessment of the attempts at evidence that the world has suggested so far, and finds that it doesnt stand up to analysis. It's like the logical position of presuming innocence until evidence of guilt. It is, at its core, the most beautifully simplistic hypothesis, cutting out the florid and distracting overlay of arguments on biblical corntradictions, and the effect of religion on the world. The argument that needs countering here is "There is no God". So far, I see no evidence of it being countered.

Greywizard 11 Nov

Bluecat. If only it were as simple as that! It is true that Dawkins says 'There is no god. Produce the evidence.' And in so far that may be all that needs to be said. But Dawkins says a lot lot more. He says that it is 95% probable that there are no gods, but the argument that he uses to show this is really quite new, and he can expect even atheists to attend to this argument with care and attention. He also says that we'd be better off without religion -- in other words, that we'd be better off believing what is almost certainly true than what is likely a fiction. But is that true? McGrath's argument is that we wouldn't be better off at all, and that the evidence points to this. I don't think it does, but there are some sobering reflections that might indicate otherwise. A lot of people -- including some who have joined this online discussion -- can't see what becomes of value when we deny the existence of God. Like Dostoyevsky, many people think that if God does not exist, everything is permitted. Well, if that is what people think, then the non-existence of God could indeed be a disaster. Prof. McGrath thinks that we would simply absoutise something else, like liberty or equality (though it’s not clear to me why he thinks that would be particularly disastrous). But whatever happens, since religion is so deeply embedded in human cultures and ways of looking at the world, those who propose the non-religious option really do need to think very seriously about what is to be put in its place. What can substitute for all the feelings of assurance and experience of community that people get from religious belief? I think there is much that can take its place, but many people do not think so, and the issue is much more serious than simply saying: 'There is no god.' Dawkins thinks that there is lots left after we have dismissed God. Science, awe and wonder at the complexities and ingenuities of natural processes, etc., what he calls in the first chapter Einsteinian religion, might do for him; but would it do for everyone? Could everyone find a sense of purpose and identity within that vast, indifferent universe? Probably not, at least at this stage, when the suggestion is relatively new, though I think he is probably right to think that, as he says in "The Devil's Chaplain," quoting from Darwin about the grandeur of the evolutionary view of life, that 'there is more than just grandeur in this view of life, bleak and cold though it can seem from under the security blanket of ignorance. There is deep refreshment to be had from standing up full-face into the keen wind of understanding,' etc., etc. (13). But... do we have a story about this view of life in which others can find themselves? And the answer probably is: not yet. It may even be that, under those circumstances, Prof. McGrath is right, and that doing away with religious forms of life at this stage of the human journey, however desirable (and of course Prof. McGrath does not think it is desirable at all), might be disorienting on a personal level, and possibly disastrous at the level of societies.At least that is what worries a lot of people, and gives them reason for pause.

jdavis 11 Nov

Greywizard. It is true that creative interpretations ('imaginative judgments') of Scripture often shift theology into the subjective, rather than the objective, view. This is, in part, due to the presumption not only that God exists, but a presumption of what *sort* of God He is. Hence my use of the analogue that a beneficial human trait corresponds to the same attribute in man's (purported) Maker. This is not a perfect argument, because neither the human condition nor the state of the material world reflects God's original intention. You'll fault this last assertion. Nonetheless, on the *assumption* that if a Creator exists, it is no great leap to *assume* that there will be some evidence of Him in the creation. Although this latter expectation is fundamental to the Christian position, the reversion is to the primary question, Is there a God? The Christian extrapolates the evidential data -- which includes subjective and objective (observational) information -- back to the initial query. This is not too much different, for example, from an as-yet unproved hypothesis in science which awaits empirical proof. As to the Dawkins' quotation, ‘Is there no catastrophe terrible enough to shake the faith of people ... in God’s goodness and power?’ For many Christians, the answer is probably, No. But hidden in Dawkins' s question is a moral judgement that goes beyond the simple query, Does God exist? If I were to argue that, yes, God exists, but He doesn't give tuppence for us and puts no limit on our actions, the assertion is not likely to prompt Prof. Dawkins to adopt theism. His objections all too often focus on the supposed rectitude of the 'Christian' God. The target appears to be, not the feasibility of deity, but the naivety of the theist. Yes, I agree that the atheistic position is sometimes arrived at through pain and suffering and massive disillusionment. Doubt informs faith. To put it another way, faith is born of doubt. And, no, It is not disrespectful to ask the hard questions. An honest atheistic position holds more integrity than a religious one based on superstition and creedal fiat. But what of the theist whose inner struggle consequently impels him to reject his former atheism? At its best, Christian inquiry does produce an articulate response to these vexed questions and, historically, has informed beneficial development along social, legislative, and political lines. Bluecat's observation that the 'central hypothesis is "There is no God"', touches on my point: leaving the Bible out of it, the evidence can be marshalled either way.

Nicholas 11 Nov

Greywizard: 1. Thanks for another lucid and thought-provoking post. 2. Trivial correction: although "everything is permitted" is a reasonable summary of Ivan's (feigned?) position in the early chapters of The Brothers Karamazov, it doesn't actually occur in the novel as it is usually "quoted". 3. More importantly (and as I think you agree) the exact opposite is true. People can and do justify any abomination by saying that their god approves it. If there are no gods, proposed moral precepts have to be debated and justified on their merits and consequences: many abominations will not be permitted (which is not to say that I think hard-line utilitarianism has all the answers). 4. You raise the excellent question: "What can substitute for all the feelings of assurance and experience of community that people get from religious belief?" 5. Maybe (and I do mean that I am not sure) those feelings are, on balance, harmful? Yes, I'm aware of the data that shows that going to church is correlated with happiness. But in practice, in all the big religions, it seems to come with belonging to a subset of people who derive their sense of community from believing that others are not true believers. As in the well known joke, this goes to absurd levels: Roman catholics vs protestants, Sunnis vs. Shiites, episcopalians vs. baptists, baptists of the 1890 council vs the 1910. 6. You may well be right that it is too frightening for many, but I would like to think that humans can one day face that facts that (a) is is unlikely that there any supernatural entities with stupendous powers; (b) if there are, we can know nothing whatever about them; (c) there really is, as you so appositely quote, "deep refreshment to be had from standing up full-face into the keen wind of understanding".

Bluecat 12 Nov

Greywizard. I'm afraid I disagree. The hypothesis "There is no God" is not answered or advanceed by the notion that somehow it would be desirable that there be a God.

Society might be a better place if "the masses" could be convinced that they would be struck down with a thunderbolt if they committed a crime. In that sense "doing away with religion" might be harmful. But the very notion of asking the question of whether we should "do away with relgion" seems to presuppose that it is a choice. Dawkins is not saying "There are two options, the very likely and the very unlikely, we should go for the very likely because that is the desirable course". He is simply saying "It is 95% certain that there is no God so I do not believe there is a God". Even if that is a disasterous outcome, that is the outcome. This is the point at which someone who disagrees with Dawkins has to respond and disagree. It is an untenable position to try and counter the hypothesis of God's non-existance on the basis that the outcome has negative societal consequences.

Greywizard 12 Nov

Well-played, Nicholas and Bluecat. After reflecting on what I wrote in the light of your comments, I do see that I was a bit hasty. Bluecat is certainly right to say that 'It is an untenable position to try and counter the hypothesis of God's non-existance on the basis that the outcome has negative societal consequences.' That is quite correct. (And, by the way, it may not be so clear either. A recent Skeptic Magazine article assesses the correlation between religion and human flourishing, and finds that highly religious nations tend to be lower on the scale of human flourishing than nations with a larger proportion of atheists or agnostics.) What I should have said, however, since it is not likely that religion is going to be replace anytime soon in many places, is that atheists should be in the business of providing ways, alternative to religion, of seeking personal satisfaction and human flourishing. And I think Dawkins needs to be in this business too. I do agree, though, as both Bluecat and Nicholas say, that the primary issueis the question, as Nicholas puts it so very well, whether 'any supernatural entities with stupendous powers' exist. And the answer to that, I think we can safely say, is very probably not. The other point, which Nicholas makes so clearly, is the fact that rather than look at the (possibly) disastrous consequences of the elimination of religion, we should, as Dawkins points out, recognise that religion itself has already been disastrous enough, and there is no reason to believe that atheism must go on, as Prof. McGrath suggests, to transcendentalise (does he me absolutise?) alternatives. That's why I think we need to be in the business of providing alternatives, since religious beliefs are embedded so deeply in our conceptions of ourselves, that the tendency may be (as McGrath suggests -- and there is at least some evidence in twentieth century history for this), in the absense of alternatives, to treat other political or social ideals as absolute presuppositions, and this will lead inevitably to serious trouble. Just consider what has happened with the decay of Western religious traditions: the rise of a whole host of so-called "New-Age" idiocies which take the place of the 57 varieties of Christianity.

Greywizard 12 Nov

jdavis. I’m not sure I understand your last post at all, and this leads me to suppose that it doesn’t have the meaning that you imagine. You say a number of things that *appear* to be moves in an argument, but it is not clear what the premises are or how what you say follows from them. Look at your words, ‘Hence my use of the analogue ...,’ etc. How does this help understand the creative interpretations of scripture which are part of theologising on it? The only way of fixing something in the objective realm is by making clear what would be the case (for any number of persons) if what you say is true. And that’s where the whole project of theology is different from the activity of confirming scientific hypotheses. Let’s take as our hypothesis that God exists. You say that ‘on the *assumption* that if a Creator exists, it is no great leap to *assume* that there will be some evidence of Him in the creation.’ Fine. What evidence? Phenomenological (‘subjective observational’ in your terms) data is a bit chancy. The argument from religious experience is widely (and rightly, I think) believed to be simply wrong-headed. What about ‘objective ... information’? I take it by that you mean evidence accessible to any unbiased observer. Well, that’s where the whole question of the existence of evil comes in. You say: ‘If I were to argue that, yes, God exists, but He doesn't give tuppence for us and puts no limit on our actions, the assertion is not likely to prompt Prof. Dawkins to adopt theism.’ But why should he? Why should the fact that there is no evidence for God’s care of his creation (that he doen’t give tuppence for for us) lead anyone to believe in God’s existence? You ask: ‘But what of the theist whose inner struggle consequently impels him to reject his former atheism?’ What of him/her? Unless he or she provides some evidence for (reason for) preferring theism to atheism, I should say that they are being irrational. You end up by saying that ‘ leaving the Bible out of it, the evidence can be marshalled either way.’ But the point I was making is that the Bible can be and is interpreted in such a variety of different ways that the Bible is no help either. Besides, taking the Bible as authoritative for this question is already to have decided the issue of the existence of God. You have to start somewhere else.

Clerkenwellman 12 Nov

The hypothesis to test is not 'God Does not Exist' or 'God Exists', but 'Men created God in order to control human group behaviour'. There is lots of evidence for this, especially in the genesis of the rules of religion and the uses to which it is put. The existence of Theos itself, arguing for more control from the religious, is itself part of that evidence.

jdavis 12 Nov

Greywizard. In my previous post I was not at all arguing for the existence of God based on Christian experience, my own or anyone else's. That's external to this discussion. Your raising the question of the existence of (objective) evil is not quite relevant, unless you start from the assumption that an existent God must be 'good', and that He has the intention or capability to intervene in human affairs. This is, of course, the long-held assertion of the Christian, and rehearsing the miserable history of the planet is unlikely to be persuasive. Rampant malicious activity or perceived ill-will in human society cannot be held to argue against God's existence, unless one is prepared to accept the converse as proving that He does. If one holds that the ratio of 'evil' to 'good' in the world is the deciding factor, then one is immunised against the contrary view, because the world is as it is. Christians are realists, too, and lament no less the sad state of affairs than do atheists. Regards.

Greywizard 12 Nov

jdavis. 'Christians are realists, too, and lament no less the sad state of affairs than do atheists.' That is increasingly true; but the question that then arises is whether, after having redefined 'god' as a being who has no or little control over what he has created, and makes no effort to intervene for good, it makes much sense to say that the purpose of the whole is some ultimate good. See the exchange by AC Grayling and Keith Ward, in Prospect Magazine, over the implications, for the existence of the Christian God, of the tsunami on 26 December 2004 (Is God to Blame? Prospect Magazine, February 2005 -- just search for Keith Ward on the Prospect Magazine site. The address doesn't seem to work when you paste into the address line). Just like the redoubtable Prof. Ward, you are shifting and changing with the argument. Of course, you do have to assume that God is good in order to argue that the existence of evil in the world is prima facie evidence against God's existence. But why would you bother 'believing in' a God who wasn't good? And how could such a faith promote human flourishing? After all, what does it mean to say that God is love? Or is it just that the bare *existence* of a god is important, no matter how diabolical or ineffective?

jdavis 12 Nov

Greywizard. Do not assume my 'lament' over the 'state of affairs' is an admission of bewilderment or evidence of my 'shifting and changing'. I am an inveterate believer in the goodness of God and His power, willingness, and intention to intervene, and would have no trouble advancing the arguments to support this proposition. However, I did not consider them appropriate in the present context of this forum. Although reducing this discussion to the simple query, Does God exist? is all right as a hypothesis, the implications that flow from the answer (for or against) are too complex to justify in a narrow debate such as this. Further, if atheism stands or falls on whether the purported God is good or not, it's not really a scientific stance at all.

Greywizard 12 Nov

jdavis. I don't know why, in view of your last post, why we are having this discussion at all. The first part of your message doens't really make sense. The last remark, namely, that 'if atheism stands or falls on whether the purported God is good or not, it's not really a scientific stance at all,' doesn't really make sense either. The Christian claim (and the claims of monotheism in general, I believe) is that God is good. The question whether that claim is consistent with the world and life as we know it has always been a real problem for believers. (See D.Z. Phillips' "The Problem of Evil and the Problem of God" for one of the latest attempts to answer the problem of evil.) In the post before your latest you suggested that Christians are realists, and lament the sad state of affairs in the world. Well, lament is one thing, making the lamentable situation consistent with a good God is another. And remember, please, atheism doesn't stand or fall with whether God is good or not. Theism certainly does, because no one in their right mind is going to assume the existence of an evil God as an answer to any of life's questions. Because, if God is evil, we're in trouble no matter what we do or say!

Nicholas 12 Nov

1. I wonder if we could get back to discussing Professor McGrath's review of Dawkins' book? The review does not discuss Dawkins' demonstration that it is very unlikely there is a god. Instead, it attacks Dawkins' suggestion that we would be better off without religion 2. Professor McGrath asserts that, if they don't have their religion as a badge of belonging to an "in" group, humans always "transcendentalise" something else. He further asserts that this process always causes more harm than religion. 3. The only evidence he offers for these assertions is the quotation from Madame Roland (not Rolande) suggesting that the dreadful crimes of the French revolutionaries were committed in the name of liberty. But we cannot know whether she thought that the revolutionaries "transcendentalised" liberty. It seems unlikely. She herself abandoned Roman catholicism. She and her husband were leading spritits in rationalist circles, before it all went wrong. I think she was, bravely and truthfully, pointing out that Robespierre and co. had abandoned the ideal of liberty, to pursue self-aggrandisement, paranoia, and brutal settling of real and imagined scores. 4. What does Professor McGrath think the citizens of the modern French republic "transcendentalise"? They do, wisely in my opinion, insist on a separation between the state and the religions. They did, controversially but as it turned out wisely, insist on the liberty of the children of Muslim parents not to be bullied into covering their hair in school. How is any of this "transcendentalising" anything? 5. More fundamentally, Professor McGrath appears to imply that it doesn't matter whether any of the (mutually completely contradictory, by the way) big religions are true. We just have to keep hold of one, preferably Christianity but if you can't stomach that, Islam is better than nothing, "for fear of finding something worse". 6. Richard Robinson nailed this cant, in a noble predecessor to The God Delusion, "An Atheist's Values", OUP, 1964. (page 117) "The main irrationality of religion is preferring comfort to truth ... We are perpetually being urged to adopt the Christian creed not because it is true but because it is beneficial ... It is always wicked to recommend anybody to believe anything on the ground that he ... will be more moral ... for doing so, or on any ground whatever except that the available considerations indicate that it is probably true. 7. In short, (a)Professor McGrath offers no evidence for his assertion that without (one of the many mutually annihilating) religions humans "transcendentalise" something else; (b) even if it is true, it is irrelevant to the question of whether there is a supernatutal entity with stupendous powers. And (c) it completely ignores the awkward facts that these alleged stupendous powers were not enough to foresee that the death of Jesus of Nazareth would lead to 2000 years of persecution of Jews, or that life on this planet would include the brutal Ichneumonidae, or that a planet with a hot core will have earthquakes and tsunamis which will arbitrarily destroy millions of life forms; or to send an angel to tip off anyone to stop Hamilton going to the primary school in Dunblane.

Greywizard 12 Nov

Nicholas. Well said, indeed. So far as I can see, this is a decisive response to McGrath's review. The trouble with McGrath's approach is the trouble with all theological approaches to the question of God's existence. God's existence is an axiom, and everything else follows. After all, if Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, then any diversion from this is bound to go badly. However, if you read McGrath's book, "The Twilight of Atheism," you will see that, for McGrath, any atheism worth its salt will be an all-inclusive universalising ideology which "is a firm and principled commitment to the nonexistence of God, and the liberating impact of this belief." (175) Since he takes atheism to be, by its very nature, universalising and ideologising, for McGrath atheism inevitably transcendentalises. Of course, if he wants to convince he has to show this -- which he doesn't -- so his point is lost by default. But it is good to have it spelt out so clearly and with so much additional detail. I was not familiar with Madame Roland, or the circumstances surrounding her execution, for instance, though Richard Robinson is an old favourite. (I am not surprised to see Prof. McGrath using evidence tendentiously, and, one might say, not altogether reliably.) On the theme of the separation of church and state see David Starkey's timely article in today's Sunday Times: "Henry was wrong. Put Religion Back in its Box."

Ashar 13 Nov

It is sad to observe the declining role of religion in modern Britain. Religion is a powerful binding force that gives spiritual happiness to a person. I understand that rational human mind sometimes has a tendency to not believe on supra-natural things but rationality is not the panacea of everything. I am a Muslim by religion but I love all divine religions. I like the role of Christianity and Christian values stronger in this beautiful land rather than secularist forces.

bashthebishop 13 Nov

McGrath is holding up a rather manky straw man. Where exactly in The God Delusion does Dawkins claim that getting rid of religion would end violence? He says no such thing. In fact he is very careful to show that he understands that. (See Chapter 8.) Suddenly religion, which is supposed to give us a clear moral lead, gets all relativistic when confronted with its shortcomings. McGrath is both patronising and deceptive, or just unable to read a book and form a coherent critical view of its contents without his banal preconceptions getting in the way. Is this is the best that theology can throw at Dawkins? Frankly its laughable.

Nicholas 13 Nov

Could I again suggest that Theos might ask Professor McGrath to respond to our points, so that we can a balanced debate?

Meanwhile Grayling has trenchantly waded in over at The Guardian. He attacks the very label "atheist" (why not a-fairyist for people who don't believe in fairies?) He concludes in a wonderful call for rationalists:

... then perhaps we can have a proper discussion about the ethical principles of mutual concern, imaginative sympathy and courageous tolerance on which the chances for individual and social flourishing rest. We need to meet one another as human individuals, person to person, in a public domain hospitable to us all, independently of the Babel of divisive labels people impose on others or adopt for themselves. Look at children in nursery school: a real effort has to be made to teach them, later on, how to put up barriers between themselves and their classmates on the basis of gender, ethnicity and their parents' choice of superstition. That is how our tragedy as a species is kept going: in the systematic perversion of our first innocence by falsehood and factionalism.

Greywizard 13 Nov

Let me add my voice to Nicholas' appeal to ask Theos to have Prof. McGrath respond to some of the comments in this discussion. After all, if Theos is a 'thinktank', that's what should be happening. ¶¶ It occurred to me, reading over Nicholas' long post of 12 November, that the source of Prof. McGrath's comments about the inevitablity of transcendentalising values (whether Christian/religious or others) lies in the very pessimistic assessment of human being within Christianity. After all, we must not forget that, for the Christian, it is impossible for human beings to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. The only sensible thing, therefore, would be to go with what we have (from divine sources). Things are bound to go very badly otherwise. And so, from Prof. McGrath's Christian point of view, inevitably, the substitution of other values (for Christian ones) is to substitute the *merely* human for the divine. This is not acknowledged, and is presented as an empirical observation, but it is, I think, a priori from Prof. McGrath's point of view. ¶¶ Responding to Asher. He must understand that secularism is not necessarily irreligious, but that it permits the prospering of religion in the private, but not the public sphere. The reason why Muslims and Hindus and Jews and Christians and others *can* live peacefully in the same society because public life is not religious. If it were, the competition amongst religions that has blighted so many nations would turn British life to chaos. Chrisian values, at their extreme can be just as intolerant as extremist Muslim values, and are not beautiful at all.

young thinker 13 Nov

how does one prove God?
how does one disprove God?
i do not think it is possible either way.
regarding what the consequences of getting rid of religion would be, we do not know!
we will never know unless religion is eliminated. anyone, Mcgrath or Dawkins, that concludes that the world would be better with religion or wose without it is making an assertion based upone faith. i can personally attest to what Jesus christ has done for me and i can attest to how jesus christ has ben used for evil beyond comprehension. would the world be better without religion? can't know that.

young thinker 13 Nov

greywizard. regarding your last claim about the intolorance of other religions:
i thank you for bringing this up
i have seen people of many different faiths hate each other, all one has to do is watch TV to see a little of this. Christians are supposed to love others. loving others means to regard them with respect that they are creations of God also. i hate seeing people fight like this and i agree that it is evil.
but the cause for Christian truth is the cause for exclucivitity (i think that is a word...)
intolorance should not come out of this but a loving preaching of the Gospel

regarding the ongoing debate about whether atheists can have an objective system of morality, i would like to know how the atheist arrives at such a system. what is its source? does it have to have a source? if morality comes from, in Dawkins-speak, the "dancing of genes" then why should one even buy into it? if it is just another random processes what is it's use? What is its purpose and why?

bashthebishop.
you said
"Suddenly religion, which is supposed to give us a clear moral lead, gets all relativistic when confronted with its shortcomings."
i do not understand this. please clarify.
you write "supposed to give us a clear moral lead" adn it seems to me that you are dissatisfied with the moral systems of one relgion or another. if this is true, why are you dissatisfied? if not, again for my sake please clarify.

Ashar.
you said "I am a Muslim by religion but I love all divine religions." what do you mean by this? are you asserting that all religions are right or that they all lead to the same truth?
i do not understand, please clarify.

nicholas.
i agree with point 7 that you made. well said!
i disagree with a quote you used by Dawkins.
you said in the quote "The main irrationality of religion is preferring comfort to truth ... We are perpetually being urged to adopt the Christian creed not because it is true but because it is beneficial ..."
religion is not irrational. symply because we cannot prove certain things does not imply irrationality. i will demonstrate this in response to greywizard

greywizard.
you said "God's existence is an axiom, and everything else follows."
that is correct, but every other system, atheism included, relies on beliefs that cannot be proven and arbitrary definitions i.e. axioms. to reject Christianity because it cannot prove everything it says, is to reject every other system of thought and faith becuase all systems rely on things axioms. the very language i am writing with relies on axioms.

as a christian i can proudly assert taht i cannot prove God. why am i proud of this? it is becuase God is greater than i. i challange anyone disregarding belief in Jesus to read teh gospels and live you life for a month as if it is true. pray to the god that you do not belive exists. tell him to reveal himself.

Nicholas 13 Nov

Young thinker: Dawkins' book presents convincing (to me)arguments why universe-creating god(s) are very unlikely. The existence of a benevolent universe-creating god is, to my satisfaction, disproved by the manifold design faults in this planet (such as earthquakes, tsunamis, Ichneumonidae, and childhood cancer). The existence of one or more malevolent gods is consistent with the observed facts about life on this planet.

I agree with you that we cannot know what humanity would be like without religion. Moreover, I think it extremely unlikely that all humans will ever stop believing all religions. But because (in my opinion) all significant religious beliefs were made up without evidence, there is no peaceful way of deciding who is right when religious beliefs conflict. That is at the heart of most (not all) of the major conflicts between humans today.

Hence one of Dawkins' other main points, that opinions based on religion do not deserve respect. On the contrary, for example, the opinion that African women should not be encouraged to insist on the use of condoms, which as far as I know is advanced only on religious grounds, is unequivocally wicked.

Nicholas 13 Nov

Young thinker: Sorry, I wrote the above before I read your second post.

1.Rationalists arrive at their morality by considering what moral rules will tend to produce the sort(s) of society they desire. For thousands of years, moral philosophers have thus arrived at some version of the "do as you would be done by" rule. Altruism is also found in other animals. The genes of animals that help each other out in hard times, and treat their young with kindness and patience, are more likely to survive.

I can't speak for bashthebishop, but for thousands of years all reputable moral philosophers have pointed out that religions cannot provide any basis for morality. Any proposed moral precept can either be justified on its merits (in which case it has no need of a supposedly sacred text to back it up); or it is the arbitrary dictate of a tyrannical god, which could change its 'mind' tomorrow about what is moral. Moreover (although I am sure this is not your own case), if you refrain from (say) stealing because you fear a god's punishment, you are not being moral. You are just avoiding punishment. Also, all extant allegedly sacred texts contradict themselves. Is it wrong to steal? Or is it wrong to own anything, as Jesus is reported to have said?

Yes, I hold to some axioms, such as that happiness is better than misery. I remain of the view that it is irrational to believe that any worthwhile god would require a human sacrifice as a ransom before it would forgive human frailty. It is also, in my opinion, irrational to believe that Jesus was both a human, as the compilers of the gospel known as "Mark" believed, and a god, as much later theologians invented.

bashthebishop 13 Nov

young thinker: McGrath takes pains to absolve religion for any responsibility for the irrationality, self-righteousness, division and violence it can cause. That is what I mean by relativistic, even if it can be shown to be bad, according to McGrath whatever would replace it must be just as bad or worse, so everything's just fine. To me that is just not a moral standpoint. Imagine it applied to any other area of morality. So why does religion get a free pass? Why is it so hard to admit the failings of religion? Is this the only way he can see to counter Dawkins? If so, I don't find it persuasive, it actually amplifies the feeling that the project is hypocritical and self-serving. A more honest appraisal would be a better starting point for a debate.

young thinker 13 Nov

nicholas.
"all significant religious beliefs were made up without evidence"
first, what constitutes proper evidence? Why?
second the resurrection of christ was not believed in becuase of lack of evidence, but precisely because there was evidence. the disciples saw Jesus after he rose. tangible, empiricle evidence is what this is.
third, demonstrate that the resurrection was made up without evidence. show me tangible evidence of this. (i am aware that this is not quite the proper time for super scholarly debates about history.....)
fourth, why would someone make such an absurd thing up? someone rising from the dead is riducoulus! and for that matter i belive it!
fifth, this is a sweeping generalization. what reaserch have you done to conclude that ALL religous beliefs were made up without evidence?

Nicholas. you said "The genes of animals that help each other out in hard times, and treat their young with kindness and patience, are more likely to survive."
first, to use an argument you used against me, if the animals are doing what is moral to survive, they would be doing what is moral, not becuase it is right or wrong, but becuase it gives them a better chance of survival. by definition, this would cease to be morality.

Nicholas. you said
"or it is the arbitrary dictate of a tyrannical god, which could change its 'mind' tomorrow about what is moral."
First, God's rules are not without reason.
second, God would not change his mind regarding a moral issue without a reason.
third, if God, who knows what is best by virtue of the fact that he is the creator, has a reason for doing something, should we not obey it?
fourth, you seem to be using the Euthyphro delimma which can be stated as
1. is something good becuase God commands it, or 2. does God command something becuase it is good. regarding the Christian concept of how we arrive at our moral system, we recognize what God does is right becuase we have been created in teh image of divine ideas of righteousness. ours and God's ideas, in the words of Mcgrath, "resonate" this dilema ceases to have any effect becuase God created man in his image
Nicholas. for the clarification for any further discussion, teh axioms i am refering to ALSO include definitions. why is zero zero? because someone said it would be. why is x times 1 always x? becuase someone said it would be. if i change theses definitions, all of Mathematics, and thus scince, would fall apart.
Nicholas. you said "It is also, in my opinion, irrational to believe that Jesus was both a human, as the compilers of the gospel known as "Mark" believed, and a god, as much later theologians invented."
first, why is it irrational?
second, prove that statement that later theologins added that Jesus was God and Human.
third, the Gospel of Mark makes many a claim to Jesus' divinity. do you want we to make a ridiculusly long list of such claims? i can if you want me to. just one of MANY examples are when Jesus forgives sins in Mark 2. Jesus was a Jew, in Jewish custom only God could forgive sins, therefore Jesus forgiving sins proves that he thought he was God. after forgiving, he then proceeded to heal the man to show that he had the power to forgive sins. he wasn't JUST saying "i forgive you." he was also forgiving a sin done to God, not to himself.
bashtehbishop. first, it is not hard for many to admit the vile evils that Christianity, and any other religion for that matter, has caused. what religious people do has no berring on whether the religion is true or not. sadly many christians have not acted like christians and have cause many evils. christians are just as sinful as any other hunyack. second, what about the atrocities that atheists have caused? Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao and the Cultural Revolution? people who hold to any view religiously have cause problems in history.
bashtehbishop.
you said

Greywizard 13 Nov

young thinker. I don't suppose there's a lot of point trying to respond to your rather long, breathless posting. But let's try a few points.


First point. The Euthyphro dilemma comes from Plato's dialogue of the same name.