Elizabeth Oldfield speaks to Secretary General for the Muslim Council of Britain, Zara Mohammed 05/10/2022
Elizabeth
Hello, and welcome to The Sacred. My name is Elizabeth Oldfield, and this is a podcast about the people who shape our public conversations, the values that drive them, and how we could all get better at living with our very deep differences. Every episode I speak to someone who has some kind of public voice or platform for a very wide range of different professions, perspectives, and points on the many political and other spectrums/spectra that we find to disagree about. I hope to better understand how they’ve come to the conclusions that they’ve reached and get beyond the two–dimensional tribal labels that we assign to each other so easily to the real human being underneath. As usual, please do write a review, share the podcast and make sure you subscribe for updates. You can also find both me and the podcast on Twitter and Instagram and we would love you to be in touch. In this episode, you will hear a conversation I had with Zara Mohammed. Zara is Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Great Britain. Prior to this, she helped lead the Federation of Student Islamic Societies, and she has an LLM in Human Rights Law. We spoke about her childhood in Glasgow, her decision to start wearing the headscarf at university, her experiences of being both the first female and youngest ever secretary general of the Muslim Council. And wosh! After all that might, I might really need to lie down. I hope you enjoy listening.
Zara, I’m going to ask you something that does not get asked on the bus or every day, but you have had a little bit of time to think about it. And that’s about what is sacred to you, as a way of trying to just get rapidly past any kind of small talk and to create some space for you to self–reflect on the values that you try and live by, that you think have been key in your life. And honestly, I don’t think anyone really knows what’s sacred to them. One of the theories is that you don’t know until it’s transgressed. And then you get that, like ‘ick’ reaction. It’s not really about kind of self–interest and comfort and convenience. These are very deep things to ask, but really, you can take it in whatever direction you want, what bubbled up for you, when you saw that question about what’s sacred to you?
Zara Mohammed
I think it did hit deep actually, when I was considering, because we don’t really use that word ‘sacred’, you know, but we all kind of know what it feels or, you know, it does definitely connect to a journey. And I think for me, it resonated quite deeply in terms of my relationship with God and faith. But also, as you said, in practice, so I think sacred, that whole idea is yeah, this is about protecting faith, you know, there is this idea of something really spiritual and special. But when I thought about it, in my lived reality, as the Secretary General of the MCB, as the leader, I think it was about servitude. What was sacred was the sincerity of which I do my work, and how I don’t allow it to be… because, you know, when I was elected, within literally an hour, I became a public figure. And so, I went from, oh, I’m doing this because it’s really important and sacred to me to serve, to oh, I have a lot of fans on Twitter now! And I think what’s sacred to me is keeping the integrity of my work: honest, authentic, with integrity, with purpose. And that’s down to my connection with faith, spirituality, and it’s not the honesty that I have, in some ways, you know, with the public audience, because how does anybody know my intention? You could know ‘oh, she’s really angelic’, you know, because she’s perceived to be, but it’s when no one’s looking, and I’m having those conversations in prayer, or thinking about where’s my relationship with God? And there’s this kind of really good bit of advice that I got from a scholar who said you try and do good deeds in private that nobody can see. Because it’s very tempting when you’re in a public facing role, ‘Oh, let’s take a photo. Let’s take a photo, let’s take a photo.’ So, all of your good deeds are for show. So, I think for me, it’s really keeping a pulse on how much of what I’m doing is still sacred, in that sense, and I’m really doing it because it’s coming from my heart. And it’s not just a photo op. And I think when you’re in positions that are very public facing it’s very difficult, because the people around you in some ways, you know, there’s fan girls, and fan boys… and there are people who do give you ‘Oh, my God, you’re amazing! You’re amazing!’ And you’re like, yeah, maybe I am! So, I think it’s actually in some ways, keeping that humility in the work. But yeah, it made me ponder deeply. And I think, sometimes it can be a bit difficult to articulate, but that’s kind of my go at it.
Elizabeth
Yeah, I was at the Lambeth Conference recently, which is the big gathering with all the other kind of Anglican bishops. And one of them said, being a bishop is very dangerous for the soul. And I think there’s a similar thing, isn’t it? Public faith leader positions, that kind of undermine the thing that you got into it, in the first place. So, it’s good to be aware. We’re really going to dig into that role and what it means and how you use that public voice. But first, we really try to give listeners a sense of the person behind the position, what’s formed them, what their story is… So, I’d love to hear a little bit about your childhood, and in particular any big ideas? Philosophical, political, religious, I’ve asked this question a lot, and I’m realising that most in people’s childhoods those things are not explicit. You know, they’re just sort of in the air. Most kids are not handed a manifesto, or you know, anything like that as a child. But I think if we look back, we can think, right, these were the kind of ideas in the air that shaped me. How would you describe that for you?
Zara Mohammed
Yeah, I’m going to… sorry to disappoint you on the philosophical. I don’t think…
Elizabeth
Not many not many people have gone for that one yet…
Zara Mohammed
They weren’t really near my colouring book, or, you know, the latest showing of Art Attack if you could remember. Remember, Neil Buchanan, I’m so ‘Oh, my God, what are we drawing today?’ But I think there’s kind of two things that really stuck out for me in my childhood that are I’m really still kind of remembering. One was in my school class, so it was…I got promoted. So, I happened to be doing better in my Maths and English tests. But I was really sad about it because all the fun kids were in… So, there was to classes, there’s a really big Year 5, you know… well, the Scottish system is a bit different. But you know, the class was too big, so they had to separate it. So I was with all the fun kids, it was really creative, everyone was really energised. There was a lot, I had a little group, a lot of fun, a lot of laughs. But unfortunately, I started doing better in my tests, and got put into the other group, which was a more high performing group… as a kid, I wasn’t really interested. I mean, maybe other kids were, but I was just more about you, you know, ‘What are we doing today on the playground?’ So I think I always had that kind of natural creativity, where I didn’t really care so much about the intellectual, but naturally, I did have that ability. And so, when I was promoted to this other group, I remember there was an art class, it was very kind of artistic. And the teacher said, I want you to draw yourselves, how do you perceive yourself? Just draw yourself… 80% was a stickman/ stickwoman type of persona, right? They just did it. Yeah, head, legs, arms done. You had a couple of like portrait styles, you know, they got a little bit deeper. But I was the only one in the class that went totally off the grid, and drew myself with super powers and a cape and coloured hair, and just like, you know, flying and, and I think the teacher actually took mine and said ‘Well look at what Zara’s done! She’s drawn herself!’… because for me, it was always about what I could be as opposed to even transfixing myself as a you know, as I am. And the second thing in my childhood that I remember, was the way that my parents were about religion. And it was never really preachy or anything, actually, other than, you know, we pray, they were always feeding the people, feeding the neighbours. I mean, you know, there was always this idea that we’ve got to help people around us. It was such a kindness. Whether my mum, she went out to work that was kind of unheard of at that time, and my dad’s the chef, and so he told me about, people would just come in really hungry, and he’d be like ‘It’s okay, just take a seat’, and he’d give him a meal. And he had a really expensive Indian restaurant. So, as a young person… they were like, you know, it doesn’t matter what anybody’s background is, doesn’t matter what they look like, what the religion is, we just help people. That’s the right thing to do. And although it was just food, I just kind of thought right, sharing is really important, so we share, and give. And so, I think those two things and I still remember them really being probably part of my philosophy, if we want to bring that in… of service, but also of like, not discriminating about people and, you know, I put my headscarf on later on in life… another kind of big moment at university, and my mother said to me ‘Well, look, I hope you know that it isn’t just because… a) you represent something now bigger than you, and that’s important, b) but also don’t change how you are to others around you, you know, it’s not about like, you’re going to be the club, you know, so and I think that and being fearless in the pursuit of being different, and that’s being okay, were really important lessons that I learned early on.
Elizabeth
Yeah, thank you. People listen to this podcast from all different faiths and none. And there’s a kind of a common thread, I think of curiosity about other people’s spirituality. So, I’d love to hear the kind of lived experience of Islam, maybe as a child, maybe it’s changed now, but just talk me through maybe the rhythms. I want to get beyond the like, these are the facts about what it’s like to be a Muslim, and that’s different for everyone, right? But the Zara Mohammad texture of the lived experience of your faith, what does it mean in terms of what you do, but also how you connect with it emotionally? If that’s not too an enormous question?
Zara Mohammed
No, it’s a good one. I think I’ve always had a really curious mind, and even my approach to religion itself was critical. I was a student of philosophy in high school, I did do philosophy, actually. And I was always kind of well, ‘Why am I a Muslim? No, why am I a Muslim? ‘‘You know, I had that little moment in 15/16 I was a very kind of academic at a young age. So, I did quite probe, and I went on that journey myself, and I remember, you know, I mean, it was very limited. YouTube wasn’t really that big, but you know, there were limited things that you could really do. But you know, I got copy of the English Quran. And I kind of sought some knowledge through classes and I just found nothing was really giving it to me and in philosophy, you know, we were doing like the study of knowledge, epistemology. And you know, we were studying all the big greats. And I remember my philosophy teacher saying, ‘well, this is either going to go two ways for you: either this is going to increase you, or you’re going to find that you need to walk away.’ But I think in some ways, understanding how to ask the right questions helped me into when I started reading the Quran, I mean, I was praying anyway, there was a bit what I got to, and it really connected to me, whatever was going on that day, whatever was happening. And I mean, I read all of those books you’re talking about, as in the ‘facts’, you know, but this was a really emotional connection, in which I felt for the first time, Wow, you know, this really speaks to me. And I think what I learned about faith in that sense is that actually, until you have, like, the root of it, until you believe at a root place in which you, you know, there’s like a moment in which everything else falls into place because of that one. And I think, because I had that moment, and I was a young person, I was reading it, I teared up, and I felt inside my heart, like a warmth and a light. And I felt okay, like, this feels right for me. And I get it now, right, I get that actually, the pursuit of faith is one about connection, also about humility, but predominantly about love, you know, and this idea that actually, I have a gift in this world, that I have a purpose. And whilst in the Islamic faith, you know, ultimate purpose is to worship the Creator, the one God, but that is through service to humanity. So in some ways, it kind of brought home all those other things. And that if we’re all here to serve humanity, and to get to know one another as nations and tribes, and there’s no compulsion in religion, that actually Islam was a very academic religion too, that invited me to be curious and to learn more. And so, as I continued on my journey, you know, I mean, I grew up in Scotland, I went to a predominantly white school, it took a while before I found Muslims, which was good for me, right, which was good for me, because then I had to kind of figure out my faith and how to express it with a predominantly non–Muslim audience. And I remember when I put my headscarf on in university, which so you can imagine…I’m having all these really important milestones. So, kind of leaving high school really understanding, right, yeah, I do want to be Muslim, but I need to continue learning, getting into university, in my first year, I couldn’t find any Muslims…still, going into Law, you know, hardly any kind of… maybe one or two. But you know, I kind of I’m just drawn to certain people, I wasn’t drawn to them. So, you know, they were there. And I would always make loads of friends. But then again, thinking, I felt like I needed to put the headscarf on, I felt like that was the next part of my journey. And I remember how like bigger deal with people just where I was like, ‘No, I’m not going to wear it until I want to wear it. And this is about me and my Creator, this about me and God, and I’m going to wear it for the right reasons.’ And for me, that is well, a) going to be me representing the faith because people will visibly see me as Muslim, but b) because I believe like that it’s important for my spiritual journey. And that’s what people don’t really appreciate about the headscarf, is that whilst it’s visibly about a sign of modesty, and a kind of identification; for a woman who wears the headscarf, as I then soon discovered, your life suddenly changes because my colleagues in Law changed how they were to me, and I was president of the Law society. And I remember one individual in particular, was so uncomfortable with me wearing the headscarf that you knew it was for no other reason but that, and I thought but I’m still the same person. I’m still Zara, you know, I’ve still got everything that I had before, because it was a summer break when I put the headscarf on and came back to uni. And I just remember thinking to myself, wow, like, is this what it’s gonna be like? And a friend said to me, ‘Well, I could never wear that I wouldn’t get a job.’ And that hit, and I said ‘Well, I wouldn’t want that job!’ Well, that’s me being feisty… but I realised that actually you know, it was really difficult to get a job. After I put [the headscarf] on, I remember like public transport became difficult people would look at me I mean, I just thought wow, like this is something now that is not just a choice that I’ve made, but apparently a challenge for society. And on the other hand, though, I did attract all the Muslims because I was visibly Muslim now. So, Islamic society here I come… you know got involved there and but what I really learned about faith… but I think that it was important for me to have experienced Islam without a headscarf and with, because when I joined the society and worked my way up the ranks, I was really really inclusive. I didn’t care what you look like whether you came with a miniskirt to the prayer room and you know, because people had all these ideas that you’ve got to really modest, you’ve got to be covered. And I said, well, if that person wants to pray, let them pray, right? Everybody is welcome. I would go out and I would say ‘salaams’ – peace to everybody, I wouldn’t judge anybody. I mean, I hosted a fashion show as part of our ‘Discover Islam Week’: a modest fashion show, all for ladies because I thought it should be fun, like people should be able to express who they are and not feel… I’ve got to be in one kind of role. And then when I met in the prayer room, Malaysians and Indonesians and people from Sudan, and I thought, wow, Islam is really vibrant, it’s really colourful, it’s really different. So, all of those really shaped my journey that actually, it’s not one type of way of expressing your faith, obviously, we’ve got our pillars. But it’s so important for you to understand that this is about, you know, serving others, bringing others, making people feel warm and welcome. But also thinking of the challenges that you face; how much harder it will be for someone who maybe doesn’t speak English as a first language or has come from a refugee community. So, I think that kind of instilled this kind of feeling of like, ‘Oh, this is a bit of an injustice…I think I should do something about it!’ And, you know, here we are, now the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain. Very, very visible at the front.
Elizabeth
Yeah, how much do you trace it? I’ve spoken to several, well, several Muslims who talk about 7/7 in the UK, as a very specific hinge point in their life of an understanding that their identity was public property, and therefore, the choices that they made, how they presented themselves became higher stakes, you know, how much did you experience that a private spiritual decision had a powerful public impact? How much is that the seeds of the job you do now, do you think?
Zara Mohammed
I think I was really young at the time, and to both 9/11 I remember being in primary school, like what’s going on, 7/7 I was in my teens, I knew that there was like this real negativity around Islam and Muslims, but I didn’t understand the politics. And then at university, when I put my headscarf on, it had been a bit of a while, since all of those things had happened. So, I understood that, yes, because of this terrorism stuff, you know, but again, I didn’t really understand the politics of what was going on. I think it was more during my student activism, when we were trying to get speakers or, you know, trying to do things, it was always this kind of additional layer of paperwork, or I remember, at one point, you know, they’re even considering, like, closing the prayer room down or, you know, so there’s all these other kinds of conversations and then I started to think, okay, there seems to be something else at play here. And then I think, once I started to really know the politics in Islam…I remember being in a Security Studies class, so because I was doing Politics, this is my final year, you could choose a couple of modules, I think I chose that one. And there was a topic, they brought up about terrorism naturally, and about extremists who kind of propagated that they were doing this in their religion. And I remember everybody looked at me. And everybody looked at me because I think the teacher had made some kind of a statements about, you know, the martyrs and he looked at me, and as if I was like, the spokesperson for this situation, or I had some kind of deep insight and, and that was a really difficult moment, I remember thinking, ‘Oh, my gosh, these are all my classmates. I’m a fourth–year Politics and Law student, and I’m sitting here and everybody’s staring at me because of this topic of terrorism and, like, what’s it got to do with me?’ And I think that was a really big moment for me, where I kind of felt well hold on a minute. And I remember I had another class, there was a small module about religion, and politics and someone was kind of attacking religion for being patriarchal or whatever it was, right… And ‘Oh in the Quran, it uses the term He for God’, but it was a complete misunderstanding of Arabic, and pronouns and how actually ‘he’ is just referring to a dominant it’s not a gender. But remember how difficult it was for me to just say something I really struggled in that moment, because I was like, you know, I didn’t feel like… was I an advocate now? So, I think I had all these little moments in which I was being probed to do something or say something, but I didn’t see myself as that kind of…what… are we all good? So, I remember then, then I think after those moments, I was like no, I’m not going to just stay silent. I’m not going to not say anything. I’m going to speak up and I think, joining the Islamic society gave me that kind of leadership experience, which I hadn’t had before. Then joining the national student scene as well, where I realised that Muslim students across the UK were all being vilified for having speakers. We weren’t allowed to do this, or I–Soc’s were being spied on. So, then I kind of met the others, and then I thought, wow, what’s going on here? We are the youth, you know, we were doing blood drives, ‘Believing and do good’ campaign’ which was inspired by the Quran, the Quranic verse, and it was like five acts, you know, doing acts of good feeding the homeless, helping the elderly, donating blood…there was a whole range of things. And we had like sample sizes across the country taking part, I think it was over one month or a week or whatever. So, we did all this good stuff, but at the same time the news was really aggressive, you know? So that’s kind of where I found myself thinking, what was my role? But again, I had no aspiration to be in such a big platform. But I think in some ways, you know, that fire in the belly, where you’re, you’re feeling like, why is every single Muslim in this country now being told they have to respond?
Elizabeth
Yeah, obviously you weren’t cowed by it. But I wonder, did you have dark nights of the soul? Were you tempted to just take the scarf off and stay private about things? And was that something that comes up in your prayers? It’s something that you kind of wrestled through with God?
Zara Mohammed
I mean, I’m quite grateful that I’ve never had that one, and because I think when I put my headscarf on, it was really a decision I had made and thought through and consolidated. It’s a bit different, I think if you’ve just put it on, and you weren’t really sure. So, for me, it kind of brought a level of certainty, but it was testing. But I kind of felt like it emboldened me, because I’m very, you know, quite principled and strong in that sense. I think my prayers were more about give me the strength, in a more wholesome way. So it wasn’t just about the headscarf, but it was like, just give me strength like to continue. Because being a Muslim is hard, being a Muslim is difficult, especially when you’ve got a Law degree and you can’t get a job and you’re perfectly capable. And, and I had loads of accolades and experience and I just thought right, I think I know, you know…
Elizabeth
Do you mind saying a bit more about that? You applied for legal jobs after university?
Zara Mohammed
Yeah. And I just really struggled to get a job, to get an interview. And I’d kind of thought, well, I’ve done you know… I was president of this, all this extra–curricular experience. But I think, you know, I mean, I was wearing the headscarf, that obviously, you can’t say it’s based on this or that. But for me, it was like blatantly obvious, I’m Muslim, I’ve got a Muslim name, I wear a headscarf, I’ve got Mohammed in my name, you know. And it is a very competitive field, and I remember even when I was the president of Law society, it was called the Mooting Society, it was like a debate club. I remember we had hosted QCs and advocates and judges; you know, I competed in front of a Supreme Court Judge. I think they used me in the Law School brochure, maybe, you know, as wearing my headscarf in court.
Elizabeth
‘See how inclusive we are’
Zara
I was thinking to myself, though, you know, I probably was a bit of a trailblazer, even at that time, to have even put myself forward to being president, I’ve done all these different things, meeting all these courts and judges. I remember when I was going through the list, because we got to choose the judges for different competitions. I look for the diversity in that list. And I think of all the 20 names of all these tops, there was maybe only one Muslim name, I think, maybe then one other diverse name, and I made sure, I put them in as judges, but I just thought, ‘Gosh, you know how difficult it must be in the industry if literally hardly anybody like you? And how is anybody else gonna get it?’ And I think, since you know, my experience, and then learning that, you know, from the Law Society, I had a couple of sessions in my official position, there’s still a lot of racism. If you’re a Sikh, for example, and you’re wearing a turban, there are lots of challenges. Muslim girls tell me that they’ve been asked, so do you have to have an arranged marriage as part of an interview? Did you have an arranged marriage? And you’re just thinking, wow, and she was I was horrified and didn’t even know what to say? Because I just thought how is this person asking this?
Elizabeth
It’s not professional.
Zara
Yeah. So those experiences, unfortunately, even since my childhood, they’re still there, industries are always changing. And I think we’ve had like, Black Lives Matters when we’ve had some big things, but there are certain industries, certain institutions where racism, inequality and discrimination are still really quite rife at the top, and maybe not at the entry points, but the higher you want to go.
Elizabeth
Yeah. And so, your career or your work or the thing that takes up most of your time has taken a different path, but I’d love you to say just as in kind of short form, your role at the MCB, maybe what the MCB is, and what your role involves, because I think there’s just a lot of misunderstanding about what it stands for, and the governance and that kind of thing.
Zara Mohammed
Yeah, so the Muslim Council of Britain is the largest and most diverse Muslim representative body in the country. So, its primary role and focus is, you know, we’re a big umbrella, and we’re an organisation that represents organisations. So, we have lots of member organisations, and these can range from mosques, madrassas, charities, women’s organisations, business networks and the like. So, we’re a democratic organisation where I’m elected every two years, and I’m elected by my members. And I’m held to account every four months by the National Council, and then obviously, you know, so we’re kind of a representative body, you know, so there are kind of areas of work, community building. So that is strengthening both a community relationship, Muslim community relationships with wider society, but also in terms of, well, how do we strengthen inclusion and diversity, access? How do we develop our institutions, improve governance, you know, all these best share best practices, or mosque conferences or, you know, have a leadership programme for women, which I’m organising… So how do we just kind of strengthen our communities with mental health issues, you know, all those different societal issues that we deal with. The second area is about policy and advocacy So how do we a) increase Muslims engaging in the public space, whether that’s in elections, or just generally participate in public life, but also, how do we lobby for issues on Islamophobia, or inequality in housing and health care, so issues that really impact Muslim communities, like COVID, for example, we were literally the national body, facilitating support and connection. So, we brought all the medics together, the charities together, we brought the mosques together, we were translating guidance, supporting people, you know, the burial services. So, we’re just bringing all that national support and sharing it, you know, travelling, telling people take the vaccine, it’s really important and doesn’t break your fast. Then the third area is really about that kind of developing a confident future for British Muslims, particularly young British Muslims. So, 50% of Muslims in this country are under the age of 25. So, half of everybody I represent i s a young person. So that’s kind of what it is and what it does. And it’s, a Democrat…
Elizabeth
It’s not a full–time job, right? Or is it supposed to be a full–time job?
Zara Mohammed
It’s a voluntary position that was not supposed to be a full–time job. But I think upon my election, it’s more or less a 24/7 thing. I mean, I’ll be at my mother’s house on a Saturday, and there’s a breaking news story at nine o’clock, I gotta get ready to be on the news. I spent four days in Wales visiting communities from Newport, Swansea, and Cardiff and from colleges to primary schools to mosques and madrassas. I mean, Bradford, Liverpool, Manchester, open iftars and Liverpool to like a 1,000 to 2,000 people with a football association and the food banks, and so it’s…
Elizabeth
It’s basically volunteering full time…
Zara Mohammed
Well for me, I do a little bit of work. But um, I mean, I have to kind of work as well. But I think the role has grown so much as has the need for Muslim communities. And I think my own public profile as I was saying before, has grown so much, people are really interested. So, it’s difficult to switch off and say, right, you know, let’s do my voluntary service for today. Because there’s always things going on. But because I connect this work so much to spirituality, I think I don’t see it as a job. I kind of see it as an act of service and of duty, something that I’m going to be held to a much higher standard of accountability for, than if it was a 9 to 5. I literally am one of the if not the most senior Muslim representative in the country. And I was elected at 29 by a majority male audience. You know, it’s, it’s a lot of trust.
Elizabeth
And it’s a lot to handle. I’d love to talk about that moment where you were elected and suddenly the full glare of the world media really turned on you. Because you were basically completely unknown. What was that experience like, the fact that you know, people get elected to this role on the regular in a few outlets like ‘this is the new president’, but because you were female and young, the reaction was bonkers. How did it feel?
Zara Mohammed
It was really overwhelming, if I’m honest, I literally thought when I ran, we might get a little piece on BBC, a little section on the website. You know, Muslim Council of Britain elects leader. We might get a bit of The Guardian you know, but nobody else is going to be interested. So, when I was running, I was feeling like the pressure of ‘Oh, how am I going to be the Secretary General in its traditional sense of just a leader of an organisation that was large?’ But the minute the election result was announced, the phones went crazy. The media inbox went crazy. BBC want you live at 6pm, Guardian, Telegraph Times, radio, and this is within an hour, right? My Twitter following is increasing, I was averaging that week, nine interviews a day, I had my famous Women’s Hour one, which we can maybe go into a little bit. But I was so overwhelmed in that first week, I wasn’t sleeping, I wasn’t eating, I was barely breathing, I didn’t really understand how to deal with this level… and remember, it’s lockdown. So, we’re still in pandemic mode. I don’t have people physically around me, my colleagues, my staff, my friends, to be like, it’s gonna be okay, let’s go for a coffee… I am at home. And you’ve always got family support and stuff, but it’s a totally different world. So, I’m doing this interview live at 6pm, my phone has gone crazy, all my social media has gone crazy. So literally, I’m kind of jammed in. And then I had that, you know, the big… most of my interviews were really lovely, really supportive. But I didn’t have any time to prep, and then I remember the Women’s Hour one came up. And there was actually one difficult, there was a couple of really difficult pieces, I mean, I did The Times, which was quite hard, it was an hour. And that was the same day as Women’s Hour, I think which was, which was ironic. So, but the Women’s Hour one was different, because the premise that they told me was it was going to be really soft, and gentle, and it was a really intimate cover. And then when I went on there, it was just obviously really hostile, really challenging. And I just was really confused by what I thought it was going to be and what it was. And then obviously, that kind of became a thing. But I remember thinking to myself at the end of that week, this is not what I signed up for. This is not what I’m here to do. I am not interested in this. And I just told my press office like stop, I’m not doing any more, tell them to wait till March, you know, because even the staff were overwhelmed, they could not believe. I mean, it was international, I was doing international news. And so, I just kind of realised that, you know, everybody wanted a piece of me; and the interview questions went from ‘Oh, great, this is really wonderful’ to everything about Islam and Muslims, the FAQ, and I was again being put in that box and asked to answer for everything. And so, I thought no, I need to set out what are my terms and conditions for being here?
Elizabeth
I need to think this through and take a breath.
Zara
Yeah, give me like a minute. Yeah, let me pray.
Elizabeth
What is your kind of theory of how you use your public voice, particularly, I’m always interested in these, these fissures between people, these differences that we hold these disagreements, and I’m thinking about both how you engage publicly from the Muslim communities outwards, but also that you are trying to create some unity across some very deep differences amongst Muslims. What have you learn about what helps and what harms I guess, unity, or at least respect and peace, in how you use your voice?
Zara Mohammed
Yeah, I think you’re definitely right. There are two audiences, two really big ones. I’ve got lots of audiences, but two, there is that kind of external face and that world which views faith in different ways, and particularly Islam and British Muslims, which have been in a kind of a securitized prisms. So, I’ve got this kind of negativity…although I think the pandemic was very helpful in saying well, actually, we’re part of society and we’re contributing; then I’ve got my internal stakeholder community, which has a young female leader for the first time ever, they’ve not met her. And there’s lots of things we’ve got to change in house too. And so, some ways out, I’m a bit of a new thing for everybody. And they’re not entirely sure what to do with me. So, I think on the public face, you know, I think principles are really important and it’s kind of knowing, what are we trying to change, and what are we trying to achieve? You know, and the MCB has its 25–year anniversary this year; it’s got 25 years of a political history, and of political engagement. But I have my own way of what I want to do politically and how I want that tone of voice to sound, what I want to invite that change to be and I bring a different dynamic…
Elizabeth
What is the tone of voice? I’m sorry to interrupt.
Zara Mohammed
It’s an invitation. It’s openness, it’s saying, well, I am a new leader and I represent something new and different. Not saying my faith is the same principles…or representing my communities are the same. But can we try something different? Because guess what, I’m also a young leader. And I think that the way that we’re doing politics generally is not really working, is it? So, I think that kind of energy and optimism and enthusiasm, which I always try and bring through, which is, yeah, we’ve got to be cutting on those hard–hitting issues. But, for example, on tackling Islamophobia, we hosted a parliamentary drop–in session, which was just an opportunity to talk and speak, and we partnered with Amnesty International on that. And I think some politicians who would have maybe not been so warm to us actually warmed up because they couldn’t believe I was a leader. And that actually, I was willing to have a dialogue. I said, ‘You know, we’re not going to agree on everything. But can we at least try and understand that this is impacting communities? And we’ve got to do something about it, is this surely any kind of inequality, right for anybody?’ And so, I think also building civil society partnerships as well, looking at, you know, the when the Sewell Report came out and said that institutional racism didn’t exist, and there was a whole sector of us that were really quite horrified. And so, we joined that. I mean, we did a statement, I spoke to Baroness Shami Chakrabarti, and she said, ‘We’ve got this police, crime and sentencing bill, and it’s really coming for Gypsy/Roma communities (Travellers). And I said, Well, we’ll do a statement.’ And we did a tweet about it. So, we didn’t need to do that, because we’re just Muslim, but I said, ‘No, well, it’s an injustice and the fact that it’s targeting those communities, well, why don’t we amplify that?’ So, I think there’s a role for us to play in being an advocate for wider society issues. They don’t need to directly benefit us. But we know that if we can’t stand up for human rights and justice for everybody, you know, it doesn’t suit us either, right? So for me, there was this idea that actually we could do more, we can be more and see ourselves as an institution that actually is a voice for good, right? And then to my internal stakeholders, I think that really began when I started touring, because Zoom meetings just did not have that same effect. So, I went to meet some of the most senior conservatives, imams, scholars, academics, I went to see mosques, that probably I mean, I don’t think a woman has ever kind of led that meeting, you know, you can imagine this happening in the chairman’s seat in the office… I thought, oh, my gosh, am I allowed to sit here? But they really honoured me, you know, everyone sat on the floor, and I was sat on the chair, and we had a Q&A…
And I’ve been touring across the country, and I must admit, you know, wherever they were on the kind of religiosity spectrum or conservative spectrum, everyone has always hosted me very well. They respect the office; they respect the mandate; and there have been difficult conversations where I’ve talked about inclusion, or I’ve talked about change, but I’ve always said it in a way, respect was the right word, I said, ‘Look, you know, I’m not talking to you, as a woman in leadership, I’m talking to you as a national leader. I’m asking for your help. I’m asking for your advice. And I’m asking for your support, where can we meet in this conversation?’ And I think that’s the ultimate lesson that I’ve learned: it is, go where people are at and help them there. Don’t assume that they all need to be where you are. Because real change can’t happen like that. And respect people’s traditions, customs and cultures, even if they don’t meet your societal standards. If you really want them to change or to progress, whatever word you want to insert there, then they have to see you as someone that respects them and is willing to kind of take people on the journey.
Elizabeth
So, you, you mentioned that about generations. And I know you’ve said that people always ask you about being a woman leader and how difficult it is. But for you the challenging thing has been the generational difference, being younger than many of the people that you’re leading or asking to kind of carry out the mandate that you have been given. I do see generational differences as absolutely key to many of the divides we think are about other things, you know, whether it’s about the environment, whether it’s about gender and sexuality. Just many of the things we find very difficult, I would guess if you did a kind of cluster analysis you would see so much for it’s coming up generationally.
What do you see those key differences are, particularly maybe in your leadership style and how you’re trying to approach things, and have you found what helps?
Zara Mohammed
I mean, I fully agree with you. I think the youthfulness was way harder than the gender. You know, I literally am the age of some of my colleagues’ daughters, maybe granddaughters. Even in that wider public space, I’m probably the youngest faith representative there. Maybe the youngest and female, I bring that whole combination where I do stand out and you know, in panels in audiences, usually everybody is older than me. So, it’s not just like a Muslim issue. It’s a societal issue. And I was like, you want to include us young people, we get here, but you don’t want to listen to us. So, I do think that’s there. And I think you’re right. I think it’s other things that are used to cover what is actually generational. And what is actually people holding on to what we’ve always done it like this, or the threat of change. And I think we don’t really have the attachment issues, the emotional attachment issues.
So, in some ways we can make kind of big decisions without the kind of fear of what’s going to happen. And I remember, some of the staff said, ‘Oh, you know, but how are we going to do it?’ And in my head, everything is possible, but people feel…how about it’s the logistics… so if you’ve got experience, lived experience, that always tells you it’s too difficult, too hard, then you’ve got this really youthful leader that’s like, ‘Oh, everything’s yeah, we’ve got it! And here are the tools and tricks you’ve not thought about.’
So, I think number one, in terms of all what to do about it, I think you really need to understand your people, you need to understand your audience. And you need to understand how to communicate change. Look, we don’t always get the benefit of community. So not everybody is going to come on board, you get the early adopters, which we know about. So, when you communicate this is what we want to do, you will get people that will come on board, but most people are in the middle. And a few people are really like against it: they can be swayed, but it’s gonna take a bit of time. I think I realised that at the start I was rushing people. And one of the steps, you know…this is a lot of change, really fast I thought, ‘Really? This is hardly anything…’ So, what I realised is that actually people’s perception, and for me, it was like, ‘Oh, let’s do a new website…those things that I didn’t really think were a big deal, for some people were really cutting issues of who we are and what we represent.
So, there’s that whole philosophy around like taking people with you, communicating the change you want, and helping people understand and then pacing it right. But and I will say but, there will be some people that will be never ready to accept your change. And there will be some people that will never come on board, and you cannot wait for them, and because I have a time bound role, not in for too long, there have been decisions and a lot of them, that I’ve just pushed through because they had to be done. We wouldn’t be moving anywhere. And I think it’s sometimes because of my age, people have questioned my ability, which really gets me, you know, whether those are around positioning and politics, or you know, how are we going to write this, how are we going to do that? Because they’re all ‘Well, what experience do you have?’ It’s your steely confidence and nerve that is being tested. It’s nothing about your intelligence or ability, you wouldn’t be there. And I had to kind of really reach back into spirituality and remember that I was chosen to be here. And there’s a reason in my life and purpose and fate that I am here, and I’ve got a role. So that must mean that I have everything I need to fulfil this role. Yes, I’ve got to learn. Yes, I’ve got to work with people, I’ve got to bring in that experience. But ultimately, I’m the head of this organisation. And so, I couldn’t lose my nerve because there was a lot of doubters, too many advisors, a lot of negative agitators, disruptors, and me being one of them… So, I think it’s going to be difficult, but try your best to communicate the change, bring people on board… Know where the lines are: that it doesn’t matter, we’re going to have to push it through.
And then finally, try and always have humility. Humility is really important. Like I said, when you get to the top, you know, and that is taking time for reflection. So, one thing I did after that crazy week is that I went for walks every morning. It’s a bit hard nowadays but go speak to the ducks, in nature, there’s a local park, you know, even if it’s just ten minutes, five minutes, fifteen minutes to just take a walk and don’t let your morning start with just the grind. I mean we have a morning prayer; it fluctuates in time but there’s a time when it is around 6am/7am which is a really nice time when you do your morning prayer, you go for a little walk, a cup of tea and then you then you’re set. But I know the days where I dive in and it’s emails first. Those days my brain is jumbled. The sign of a good leader is really being able to collect your thoughts and reflect, reflect, reflect, you have to reflect. Introspection will do you a great deal of good. When you’re deep in it, you can lose yourself and your purpose as to why you started.
Elizabeth
I have one last question, which is maybe cheeky, because I can’t imagine you’ve had time to think about what do you want to do next?
Zara Mohammed
I don’t know. I mean, yeah, I don’t know. What does one do now? What do you do after being a Secretary General? I’ve definitely hit quite a high area quickly. Look, for me, I’m going to continue serving, wherever I go, whatever I do, and there’s lots of opportunities to do that. But service is what drives me, it excites me, helping people, making people feel good, listening, and being able to be a voice for…you know… I guess tackling injustice, promoting equality, whatever it is. And I think service and servitude is really important. I don’t really know, I think the way that I see it is that the most important thing sometimes is not what you do, but who you become in the process. And I feel like this is one of those kinds of journeys. Again, I’m part of an institution, but I’m not going to see this institution to the end, I’ve only got a fixed term. So, it’s really about who does Zara become in that journey? And I think quite honestly, in a year and eight months I’ve been in office, I have changed so much. The core is there, but I have changed, whether that is in confidence and self–awareness, whether that is in just personal development of ‘Oh, actually, I don’t like this about myself’, or it’s in friends and networks, it’s in influence and travel. But I think if you’re still exactly the same, sitting in the same place, doing the same thing, you haven’t had any kind of incremental change, that’s when you should be worried. And by change, I don’t mean, you go run into the wild. But I mean that you feel like growth, and I felt a lot of growth. And so, if I can continue to serve and help people, and hopefully still be a good person in that process, I’ll be pretty satisfied. And then yeah, look, I’m ready for early retirement. I’m tired. I’ve aged too! I’m like sixty right now. You know, have a lie down. Let me rest.
Elizabeth
Zara Mohammed, thank you so much for speaking to me on The Sacred.
Zara Mohammed
Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure.
Elizabeth
My overarching impression of Zara is that she’s a bit of a force of nature. I have rarely met someone with so much energy and clarity and confidence in what they are doing, with a really good dose I think of self–reflection. You know, she said, she’s always been told ‘you’re amazing, you’re amazing’, and it’s easy to start believing that you are. There’s such a tricky tightrope walk, I think, around confidence because my other impression of her is her very deep confidence, this very deep sense of this is who I am, this is what I’m good at, this is how I’m going to throw myself at the job, which is really refreshing and admirable, and makes me realise how often maybe rare it is. Or maybe I’m not used to it from young women. But it’s just there, you know, she is who she is, and she’s going to do her job. And I really like it and how much that is a kind of a right and good thing. Real humility is not doing yourself down or thinking that you’re less talented, that you are or being less confident. In fact, it’s just not the same thing as arrogance, and the spiritual danger of those kind of leadership positions, maybe even all public positions, or spiritual danger of the tightrope between this kind of false humility and unnecessary self–flagellation and getting mired in imposter syndrome. And arrogance does require I think, concentration to walk that tightrope, so it’s left me thinking about that. I love the way she talked about when she was really connected with Islam for herself. She encountered this kind of warmth and light and felt teared up, it was really reminding me of the John Wesley quote about ‘I felt my heart strangely warmed.’ And I think so many of us, our encounters with you know from my perspective with God, with a tradition or a religion… and all of the language is complicated there. But you know what I’m getting at is so often an emotional, tearful relief, kind of homecoming, and it was really nice to hear some of that. Really sad that she’s found it difficult to get a job with a headscarf, she now has a bonkers job, which is not in fact a job. It’s supposed to be this kind of voluntary, unpaid traditional position, but seems like she’s working double the number of hours that a real job would require. And it left me thinking a lot about that Emma Barnett interview that she referred to. I went and listened to it ahead of time, and also read quite a lot of commentary around it and still don’t feel much clearer about what I think, which regular listeners will know is not uncommon. It does seem to be a kind of both and situation. That yes, Zara was firstly on the job and had not been as well prepped as she might have been had she known it was just going to be that kind of much more newsy political today programming style interview.
I think it was probably a mismatch of expectations, because that’s sort of what Emma Barnett does. And that kind of rigour and challenge to a representative group seems to me to be completely fair. But the question that caused so much outrage about you know, if you’re a woman and you’re celebrating that, but why are there no female imams, did seem to me to be a kind of misunderstanding of context and what feminism might look like in different places. But yeah, really hard interview to do on your first week in the job and to be thrust into the limelight like that. It must have been completely and utterly overwhelming. The other thing is… it lets me think about is the Muslim Council of Great Britain and its place as a ‘political football’. And there’s a really great piece that my colleague Simon Perfect at Theos wrote back in July 2022, which if you’re really interested in the kind of broader currents… we didn’t really get to talk about it. But some of the ways the organisation has itself been positioned and played out in public conversations and what that means for the kind of legacy that Zara is trying to navigate, you can go and read that. And now I feel like I need a cup of coffee in order to emulate Zara’s amazing energy levels.
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